[[email protected]]

I've spoken with tech support people several times in the past 7 years
in an attempt to get their software engineers to provide one or more
circuit configurations in the NX8, and more recently the NX8E, similar
to the fire alarm loop configuration -- for use with devices that
initiate an alarm by shorting the circuit and initiating a trouble
signal when either side of the loop is open.

CO Detectors are available with an internal "trouble" relay, which can
be made part of the protective circuit so that when the relay opens
its closed contacts (as when the power fails or when the unit fails,
etc), a trouble signal at the control panel is the result.

I have had no luck in this endeavor.

The configuration currently available in the NX8E for the combination
"short on alarm" and "trouble on open" causes the FIRE light to flash
indicating fire. Consequently I do not wish to place my CO detectors
in that configuration.

I'm looking for the same type of circuit, but I do not want the panel
to indicate FIRE.

Do any of you NX8E techies know if this configuration is possible now?
Am I not seeing the forest for the trees? This type of circuit is
extremely useful -- as anyone installing heat detectors and smoke
detectors can attest to.

Thanks. Charles

 

[nick markowitz]

I get around the problem on high end panels by using the supervisory loop .
This provides what you want and if you use a lcd keypad it prints put if its
a tamper valve or co detector in supervisory alarm condition or trouble
with out turning on the horns .Check with AHJ before you do it but no bidys
turened me down on it and they like the idea occupants know theres a problem
without sending the trucks right away.

 

[soup]

use 2 zones?

 

[soup]

use 2 zones?

only if form C relay. how does that double eol circuit option work?

 

[[email protected]]

I've used this trick ("borrowing" from the power negative terminal) in
cases where a customer wanted an additional Motion Detector near an
existing one, in order to meet my requirement for placing the 2nd MD
on its own zone.

I've also used the same trick when installing a new CO unit above an
existing NX8E Keypad. I feed the CO with 12vdc from the pad, feed the
negative to the CO relay terminals, and ship the signal back to the
panel on the unused 4th wire of a standard quad cable (keypad only
requires three conductors).

To reiterate my original goal, I'd like to use a four-conductor cable
for alarm and trouble signals for CO Detector configurations, rather
than run extra cable and use up another zone.

but On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:34:47 -0500, "Robert L Bass"

 

[[email protected]]

The disadvantage of using only four conductors in the standard
configured loop with the eol resistor at the CO unit is that if I run
the loop through the contacts of the relay, it will give an alarm
signal when power fails or for some other internal problem unrelated
to the presence of CO.

Therefore you can plainly see that if I wish to avoid sending the fire
department using the configuration in the previous paragraph I can not
make use of the trouble relay contacts -- which is a terrible waste of
good engineering and leaves the homeowner vulnerable to a unit that
someday will faill -- and I and the homeowner won't know about it.

 

[Eyeball Kid]

The Honeywel (nee Ademco) Vista 15 & 20s have a smilar problem . We use
a CO detector (the C0Star 12SIR) that has 2 Form C relays for Alarm and
Trouble.
You can hook it to the panel and wire it so that the Trouble Relay is
N.C. and the Alarm Relay is N.O. on a single zone with that zone
programmed as CO and it works fine.

BUT.... do the same thing on a zone expander and if the Trouble Relay
opens and THEN the Alarm Relay closes the zone goes into trouble and
never goes into alarm. In order to get the zone to go into alarm at
this point you have to restore the EOL (even for just a second). When
you push the test button on this detector it does precisely that - goes
into trouble for 5 seconds and then into alarm - then the customer calls
and asks if the Monitoring Center got the alarm and the answer is "No".

This little flaw is completely undocumented in the Installation manual
and when we discovered it and called Tech Support about 4 years ago they
had never heard of it. Since then Honeywell has done nothing to
correct the firmware or put a warning in the manual that this
configuration should not be used on a zone expander. This despite my
continual hounding of their reps every chance I get "oh-oh, here comes
old whatshisnuts again" is probably what they say when I come around the
corner at a trade show.

One of these days, someone is going to get severely injured or possibly
die when the CO detector goes into alarm after going into trouble. I
wonder if that lawsuit will spur Honeywell to fix this little oversight.

 

[Robert L Bass]

I wonder if that lawsuit will spur

Honeywell to fix this little oversight.

It might. McDonalds lowered the temperature of their coffee.

 

[Robert L Bass]

The disadvantage of using only four conductors in the standard

configured loop with the eol resistor at the CO unit is that if I run
the loop through the contacts of the relay, it will give an alarm
signal when power fails or for some other internal problem unrelated
to the presence of CO.

Therefore you can plainly see that if I wish to avoid sending the fire
department using the configuration in the previous paragraph I can not
make use of the trouble relay contacts -- which is a terrible waste of
good engineering and leaves the homeowner vulnerable to a unit that
someday will faill -- and I and the homeowner won't know about it.

It's a catch 22 type situation. One method can cause an unwanted alarm. Another can make the system miss an actual alarm. Because
of that I much prefer to keep alarm and trouble on separate loops. You could get around that on a commercial system using a class A
fire loop but then you have the issue of a CO detector on a fire alarm zone.

About the only solution I have come up with is to use separate zones.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[soup]

To reiterate my original goal, I'd like to use a four-conductor cable
for alarm and trouble signals for CO Detector configurations, rather
than run extra cable and use up another zone.

well that's what you're gonna hafta to do [2 zones] if you wanna to do it
right.