electronic detection of earthquakes

[S Claus]

Hi all

I happened to find the following book at Amazon, and had a question
about it:

Ionospheric Precursors of Earthquakes
by Sergey Pulinets and Kirill Boyarchuk
ISBN: 3540208399

The book description states:
The book aims to explain the variations of near-Earth plasma observed
over seismically active areas several days/hours before strong seismic
shocks. It demonstrates how seismo-ionospheric coupling is part of
the global electric circuit and shows that the anomalous electric
field appearing in active seismic areas is the main carrier of
information from the earth into the ionosphere. The discussion of
physical mechanisms is based on experimental data. The results can be
regarded as the basis for future applications such as short-term
earthquake prediction.

URL to the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Ionospheric-Precursors-Earthquakes-Sergey-Pulinets/dp/3540208399/

----


My question is, has anyone actually built a working device that can
detect an earthquake based on the principles outlined in the book?

Thanks,

 

[[email protected]]

Hi all

I happened to find the following book at Amazon, and had a question
about it:

Ionospheric Precursors of Earthquakes
by Sergey Pulinets and Kirill Boyarchuk
ISBN: 3540208399

The book description states:
The book aims to explain the variations of near-Earth plasma observed
over seismically active areas several days/hours before strong seismic
shocks. It demonstrates how  seismo-ionospheric coupling is part of
the global electric circuit and shows that the anomalous electric
field appearing in active seismic areas is the main carrier of
information from the earth into the ionosphere. The discussion of
physical mechanisms is based on experimental data. The results can be
regarded as the basis for future applications such as short-term
earthquake prediction.

URL to the book:http://www.amazon.com/Ionospheric-Precursors-Earthquakes-Sergey-Pulin...

Well, essentially yes. After the real engineers established that
electronic *processing* is a branch of chemistry, rather than
engineering,
that's were all the robots, lasers, cells phones, optical
computers, laser disks,
fiber optics, Holograms, GPS, Autonomous Vehicles, Drones, Cruise
Missiles,
On-Line Banking, On-Line Publishing, Digital-Terrain Mapping,
Microcomputers,
Parallel Processors, and post GM Robotics came from.
So the only way to detect an Earthquake is actually ferro-
chemically,
rather than electronically.

 

[Martin Brown]

Hi all

I happened to find the following book at Amazon, and had a question
about it:

Ionospheric Precursors of Earthquakes
by Sergey Pulinets and Kirill Boyarchuk
ISBN: 3540208399

The book description states:
The book aims to explain the variations of near-Earth plasma observed
over seismically active areas several days/hours before strong seismic
shocks. It demonstrates how seismo-ionospheric coupling is part of
the global electric circuit and shows that the anomalous electric
field appearing in active seismic areas is the main carrier of
information from the earth into the ionosphere. The discussion of
physical mechanisms is based on experimental data. The results can be
regarded as the basis for future applications such as short-term
earthquake prediction.

URL to the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Ionospheric-Precursors-Earthquakes-Sergey-Pulinets/dp/3540208399/

Seems very expensive for what it is. Try ADS abstracts first or inter
library lending. My suspicion is that it doesn't work reliably. If it
sees anything I would hazard a guess it was changes in the earths
conductivity.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-basic_connect?qsearch=ionospheric+precursors&version=1

My question is, has anyone actually built a working device that can
detect an earthquake based on the principles outlined in the book?

I very much doubt it. Earthquake prediction is a Holy grail.

They may be able to say after the event "hey maybe we saw something
unusual in the ELF/VHF Ionosphere signals". But the ionosphere is quite
often doing something unusual. If anyone has built an earthquake
predictor using this method it will be the Japanese - after all they
still have tanks of fish camera monitored for their alleged sensitivity
to earthquakes.

You can detect them easily enough when in progress. And I would swear I
was in an earthquake in Japan where I heard it coming for 2-3 seconds
before the ground suddenly jolted to the side by about an inch. Every
maglev turbo pump running in the Tokyo area was totalled that night.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[David L. Jones]

Seems very expensive for what it is. Try ADS abstracts first or inter
library lending. My suspicion is that it doesn't work reliably. If it
sees anything I would hazard a guess it was changes in the earths
conductivity.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-basic_connect?qsearch=ionospher...




I very much doubt it. Earthquake prediction is a Holy grail.

Just attach wireless bark sensors to a statistically significant
number of dogs. If they all start barking and going berko at once,
good chance an earthquake is on the way.

Dave.

 

[[email protected]]

Hi all

I happened to find the following book at Amazon, and had a question
about it:

Ionospheric Precursors of Earthquakes
by Sergey Pulinets and Kirill Boyarchuk
ISBN: 3540208399

The book description states:
The book aims to explain the variations of near-Earth plasma observed
over seismically active areas several days/hours before strong seismic
shocks. It demonstrates how seismo-ionospheric coupling is part of
the global electric circuit and shows that the anomalous electric
field appearing in active seismic areas is the main carrier of
information from the earth into the ionosphere. The discussion of
physical mechanisms is based on experimental data. The results can be
regarded as the basis for future applications such as short-term
earthquake prediction.

URL to the book:http://www.amazon.com/Ionospheric-Precursors-Earthquakes-Sergey-Pulin...

----

My question is, has anyone actually built a working device that can
detect an earthquake based on the principles outlined in the book?

Thanks,

Think of the piezo-electric effects from the huge strains inside the
Earth.

I would suppose that some monster electric fields would precede the
final cracking of the rocks.

Cats seem to be able to sense earthquakes.

http://pets.indiatimes.com/articleshow/394694939.cms

 

[[email protected]]

I'm skeptical about this.  I don't know about
these guys in particular, but this subject has
been bandied about in pseudo-science areas for
many years.  As I recall, the root hypothesis was
that mechanically-strained quartz or other
piezoelectric minerals would generate high
voltages at a fault before breaking/slipping.

But this was an "armchair theory" devised to
"explain" a lot of poorly-documented
"observations" like UFOs, unusual animal behavior,
and psychic nonsense.  (The UFOs were supposed to
be balls of plasma.)  The whole thing was a
complete house of cards built on wishful thinking.

Now, many years later, it's *possible* that there
has been some real science done on this, but I
doubt it. I would bet that this is nothing more
than the same wild conjecture in absence of any
measured data.  Caveat emptor!

Best regards,

Bob Masta

              DAQARTA  v4.51
   Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
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Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
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        Science with your sound card!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bob, I tend to agree with you. Bravo to Amazon if they removed this
book from their offerings, because it appears to be nothing but pseudo
scientific crapola.

First, because theere is no "plasma" surrounding at risk regions. (The
author evidently didn't even know what a "plasma" is.) Secondly, the
author doesn't appear to undersatand piezo electricity, which is a
temporal event (dV/dt), and not an electrical force that can be
continually monitored.

The author clearly does not understand the difference between a
"strain gauge" and a piezo electric sensor (which is essentially a
microphone) and is clearly tossoing out crapola just to sell books and
earn money. If Amazon has indeed taken this piece of pseudo-
scientific crap off their shelves...It raises my opinion of them and
their ethics.

That said, let me add the following comment which is somewhat off
topic. I really worry about the "dumbing down of America". For those
of you that think this in unreal, watch the current replacements of
the ATMs at Bank of America locations. The new machines requre to
deposit checks individually, rather than collectively in a sealed
envelope. As told to me by a bank employee, this expensive optical
reading switch is simply because a large portion of our country no
longer has the ability to add correctly, and it was costing the banks
so much to re-process the addition errors that it actually saves them
money to incorporate optical scanning into their ATMs, rather than to
have their customers compute the sum of multiple checks.

That's pretty bad, and worse still is the fact that these people who
cannot add up the sum of a few checks correctly actually get to chose
our government leaders.

This scares me.

Harry C.

 

[Martin Brown]

I'm skeptical about this. I don't know about
these guys in particular, but this subject has
been bandied about in pseudo-science areas for
many years. As I recall, the root hypothesis was
that mechanically-strained quartz or other
piezoelectric minerals would generate high
voltages at a fault before breaking/slipping.

But this was an "armchair theory" devised to
"explain" a lot of poorly-documented
"observations" like UFOs, unusual animal behavior,
and psychic nonsense. (The UFOs were supposed to
be balls of plasma.) The whole thing was a
complete house of cards built on wishful thinking.

The book is probably over priced nonsense, but there are just enough
papers in ADS abstracts to make me think that dismissing it completely
out of hand may be premature. Testing the observational data is the
first step to see if there is real signal or mere coincidences.

It may or may not be a useful predictor but there have been ELF and VLF
events in the ionosphere that the authors claim were just prior to major
quakes. It would require too much time to check the papers since I don't
have easy access the those journals. I suspect there may also be plenty
of them where nothing special happens too.

Now, many years later, it's *possible* that there
has been some real science done on this, but I
doubt it. I would bet that this is nothing more
than the same wild conjecture in absence of any
measured data. Caveat emptor!

If you have an academic subscription and the time and patience try
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/n...ch=ionospheric+precursor+earthquake&version=1

I confess I am curious about what if anything they are seeing. I doubt
it is anything useful, but since no other earthquake prediction methods
work well...


Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[[email protected]]

The book is probably over priced nonsense, but there are just enough
papers in ADS abstracts to make me think that dismissing it completely
out of hand may be premature. Testing the observational data is the
first step to see if there is real signal or mere coincidences.

It may or may not be a useful predictor but there have been ELF and VLF
events in the ionosphere that the authors claim were just prior to major
quakes. It would require too much time to check the papers since I don't
have easy access the those journals. I suspect there may also be plenty
of them where nothing special happens too.

If you have an academic subscription and the time and patience try
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/n...ch=ionospheric+precursor+earthquake&version=1

I confess I am curious about what if anything they are seeing. I doubt
it is anything useful, but since no other earthquake prediction methods
work well...


Regards,
Martin Brown

There was a web page about an VLF monitoring project that I can't seem
to find anymore.

Essentially what they were trying to do is get volunteers to monitor
and record signals from as many locations as possible to determine
if there was in fact any correlation between such signals and later
earthquakes.

I have no idea how sucessful they were in any aspect of the project.

Most research of this type appears to be occurring in Japan.

 

[rick++]

There has been a paper or two every year on this topic at the
American Geophysical Union Meeting.
The intriguing question is whether these changes start
*before* an earthquake. Thats unanswered.

 

[Weatherlawyer]

But of course that doesn't imply that geological
strain can produce big (or even measurable)
surface fields.  I'll await data on that...

There is a lot on the subject. I don't think they have mentioned
pietzo electrics per se as they are the subject of research and it's
in its infancy at the moment. Far field triggering and seismic lensing
might get you started on the material.

It's pretty obvious that the inference is pietzo elctricality but
until further research is funded, it isn't possible to state the
obvious.

I started putting some stuff about it on-line but got distracted
before I finished -as usual.

 

[Weatherlawyer]

If you have an academic subscription and the time and patience tryhttp://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-basic_connect?qsearch=ionospher...

I confess I am curious about what if anything they are seeing. I doubt
it is anything useful, but since no other earthquake prediction methods
work well...

There are plenty of precursors but sadly the relevant databases that
should be built to take advantage of them is sidelined by people like
the yahoo above.

Whilst the rest of the world hangs on for contemporary geology to wake
up and smell the coffee, seismologists will continue to bang their
heads against reality.

All very sad really.
Still, never mind, eh?

 

[Weatherlawyer]

There has been a paper or two every year on this topic at the
American Geophysical Union Meeting.
The intriguing question is whether these changes start
*before* an earthquake. That's unanswered.

I am convinced the recent eruption was warned of in the MetOffice's
North Atlantic Chart.

A move to fairly high "low pressures" and fairly low "high pressures"
foretells volcanic disturbances as has been seen on the net the last
few days. Especially if the weather spell is out of kilter with what
the time of the phase indicates it should be.

I put some of the charts on here:
http://my.opera.com/Weatherlawyer/albums/show.dml?id=688272

 

[james.smith]

wow thats really good

 

[Nemo]

My question is, has anyone actually built a working device that can

detect an earthquake based on the principles outlined in the book?

No.

There is no reliable way to predict an earthquake yet, in a useful
manner. You can say "San Francisco will probably have a magnitude 7
quake in the next 10 years... probably"; but detecting a buildup of
stress is, as yet, a long way from giving a *useful* warning.

Of course it is worth following every viable avenue of enquiry in the
hope something will prove useful.

 

[Nemo]

Argh! I've cross posted! Apologies everyone. Just hit the "reply"
button.

 

[Androcles]

Argh! I've cross posted! Apologies everyone. Just hit the "reply" button.

Thank you for your consideration. I don't know which groups
you x-posted to, though, so I'm broadcasting too.

 

[Androcles]

Newsgroups:
sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design,sci.physics,sci.geo.earthquakes

Any decent newsreader gives you access to the headers to discover
this. This may not include outhouse express.

Doubtless I could discover it if I were not as lazy as the original
x-poster.
I cannot help but notice your hypocrisy in continuing to x-post,
you fucking smart arse.

You are in the wrong newsgroup. I write about science and mathematics;
if you wish to write about me then try any of alt.social.interaction,
sci.diplomacy, junk.religion, alt.flame, alt.local.village.idiot, a
finishing school for debutantes who are coming out, "People" magazine
or other group that doesn't subscribe to math or science, although
why you would want to is a mystery only you can answer.
If you wish to say that I am wrong on some point of math or science
then point it out and we'll discuss it, but if you merely wish to say
I am wrong according to your pathetic philosophy of everybody has to
agree with you and be polite, regardless of logic, then again you are
in the wrong group.
I am not that interesting, but there is no accounting for taste.
It is after all your choice. You are certainly of zero interest to me,
fuckin' opinionated prima donnas like you never are.
Perhaps you just like bitching about off-topic subjects and ignoring
the newsgroup charter, you rude, hypocritical bastard. I suggest you
look to your own hypocrisy and **** off, taking your spam with you.

*plonk*

Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated;
you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive,
unfunny or because you are a troll; any reply will go unread. There is
no appeal, although the kill-file will be cleared annually with Spring
cleaning or whenever I purchase a new computer or hard drive.
This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing
that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry
without challenge. Have a nice day.

 

[Rich Grise]

Argh! I've cross posted! Apologies everyone. Just hit the "reply"
button.

Actually, cross-posting is preferable to multi-posting, as long as the
topic is plausibly within the purview of the groups involved.
http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/crospost.html

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Androcles]

Actually, cross-posting is preferable to multi-posting, as long as the
topic is plausibly within the purview of the groups involved.
http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/crospost.html

Cheers!
Rich

With so many newsgroups it makes one wonder why all posts
end up in sci.physics as well -- especially American politics and
religion. I see little of Norwegian, Irish, Sudanese or Argentinean
politics. For a nation that is a melting pot of many cultures the
USA is peculiarly interested in maintaining a British form of
government but not religion - we kicked out Jews and Catholics
hundreds of years ago.
Can we discuss electronics and earthquake physics now instead
of varieties of x-posting, please?

 

[Belba Grubb]

They may be able to say after the event "hey maybe we saw something
unusual in the ELF/VHF Ionosphere signals". But the ionosphere is quite
often doing something unusual. If anyone has built an earthquake
predictor using this method it will be the Japanese - after all they
still have tanks of fish camera monitored for their alleged sensitivity
to earthquakes.

I'm not about the spend a century-and-three-quarters or so to read the
book, so perhaps my question about it is irrelevant, but here it is:
how can a relatively small part of the Earth, that in which the
epicenter occurs, often many miles below the surface, manage to affect
an atmospheric layer that is above both the weather layer
(troposphere) and the ozone layer/stratosphere/mesosphere without
simultaneously causing a signal of *some* sort that just about
everybody and their brother, in this highly instrumented and
electronified age, can pick up?

You can detect them easily enough when in progress. And I would swear I
was in an earthquake in Japan where I heard it coming for 2-3 seconds
before the ground suddenly jolted to the side by about an inch. Every
maglev turbo pump running in the Tokyo area was totalled that night.

About a year ago, I was waiting in a transportation hub rather late at
night, when things had quieted down, and thus the train, when it
passed through the building level below us, was quite noticeable. I
swear I am not making this up: Right after that, a Japanese man
strolled into the room and asked if we had felt the earthquake.



Barb