Home alarm system - is temperature sensor a good fire prevention?

[Andy]

Is monitored temperature sensor an effective fire prevention device?
Or is it just a incident report device?

Thanks

 

[G. Morgan]

On 18 Nov 2004 20:32:22 -0800 "Andy"
used 4 lines of text to write in newsgroup: alt.security.alarms

Is monitored temperature sensor an effective fire prevention device?

How is any sensor going to prevent a fire?

Or is it just a incident report device?

Smoke detectors are life safety devices. Heat detectors are used to
back up smoke detection, but are not life safety devices.

Temperature sensors are not used in a fire alarm system.

 

[Frank Olson]

On 18 Nov 2004 20:32:22 -0800 "Andy"
used 4 lines of text to write in newsgroup: alt.security.alarms


How is any sensor going to prevent a fire?


Smoke detectors are life safety devices. Heat detectors are used to
back up smoke detection, but are not life safety devices.

Temperature sensors are not used in a fire alarm system.

Isn't a "heat detector" a "temperature sensor"??

 

[Fred Mau]

Is monitored temperature sensor an effective fire prevention device?
Or is it just a incident report device?

Thanks

I might consider the use of a heat detector IN ADDITION TO a smoke detector,
as a backup, but never instead of.

Even the manufacturers of heat sensors say this. For instance,
http://www.masterguard.com says: "NOTICE: Properly functioning smoke alarms
give earlier warning than Heat Alarms in nearly all residential fires. This
is because detectable levels of smoke almost always develop before
detectable levels of heat."


- FM -

 

[Peter Leopold]

Is monitored temperature sensor an effective fire prevention device?
Or is it just a incident report device?

Thanks

To my knowledge the only *prevention* is to use inert gas. For example:
http://www.minimax.de/en/produkte/gassysteme/permatec/

Everything else just alerts/reports:
A temperature sensor is a great thing to detect fires without smoke so if
you are sure that the only thing caching fire in your house can be your
stored liquor (ethanol) the heat sensor will be best.

Or under very special cirumstances [do you store dipropylmethane? ;-)]
Multicriteria (optical + ionsisation + heat).

In any other case use multicriteria (optical + heat) sensors.

Kind rgards
Peter

 

[RCC]

Heat Detectors have their place in residential fire systems. The
rate-of-rise detector will trip at a certain temperature (135 degrees is
standard) and also trip if the temperature increases very rapidly.
ROR Heat Detectors are no replacement for a well designed smoke system for
building and occupant safety. I always use a combination of photo and ion
detectors on a ratio of about 5 photo to 1 ion, with at least one ion in the
system. The reason is that these detectors respond differently to
smoldering and flash fires. It is best to have both in the system. It is
getting harder to find ion detectors as the installing companies are
reluctant to really stock both type, thus the manufactures are cutting back
on models.

Back to the RoR Heat detectors, they are useful in garages and attics, where
the electronics in smokes will not operate in the cold or heat. They are
also good as supplemental to smokes in areas of the home that are subject to
non-dangerous smoke. This can be the kitchen and area around a fireplace or
wood stove. These are areas where a puff of backflow or a burnt toast could
trip a smoke and cause an alarm.

Hope this helps.

 

[Robert Bass]

Even the manufacturers of heat sensors say this.

For instance, http://www.masterguard.com ...

Note: Master Guard is a well known rip-off. They push wind-up heat
detectors (no kidding) using high pressure in-home pitches. Their products
had a mandatory recall because they are incapable of protecting anyone or
anything from fire. They _also_ sell some cheap non-system smoke detectors
at inflated prices. The wind-up toy heat detectors are sold at anywhere
from $150 to over $400 apiece -- whatever the victim is willing to spend.

There have been numerous, lengthy threads in this newsgroup about these
wind-up heat detectors, the crooked company that sells them and the US
Consumer Product Safety Commission recall. Don't fall victim to this
dishonest company's treachery.

 

[Frank Olson]

Note: Master Guard is a well known rip-off. They push wind-up heat
detectors (no kidding) using high pressure in-home pitches. Their
products had a mandatory recall because they are incapable of protecting
anyone or anything from fire.

Hmmm... The subject of the recall was *one* of their products:

http://www.hrm.uh.edu/docs/lpmi archives/1999.05.htm

with specific serial numbers and dates of manufacture. My Ford's had four
recalls since I bought it (all of them minor).

They _also_ sell some cheap non-system smoke detectors at inflated prices.
The wind-up toy heat detectors are sold at anywhere from $150 to over $400
apiece -- whatever the victim is willing to spend.

Or can afford?? )

There have been numerous, lengthy threads in this newsgroup about these
wind-up heat detectors, the crooked company that sells them and the US
Consumer Product Safety Commission recall. Don't fall victim to this
dishonest company's treachery.

I suppose you're going to add "Kidde" to your "list" as well as it appears
they're also the subject of a "mandatory recall". Tsk!!!

 

[Andy]

Sorry, heat sensor is what I am refering to.

Isn't a "heat detector" a "temperature sensor"??

 

[Frank Olson]

Sorry, heat sensor is what I am refering to.

No biggie... It looks like your question was answered satisfactorily (and
that's what counts).


--
Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
Free listings for qualified dealers and industry professionals
You can read the ASA FAQ at
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/asafaq.htm

 

[Gel]

UL Approved Heat Alarms have to be marked "This is not a life safety
device".
In Uk the British Standard does not require that marking {BS5446 Pt
2:2003}, but does insisit they are always part of a "system"
interconnected to compatible Ion &/0r photo smoke alarms.
This is why you'll rarely find battrey models.

England/Wales Building Regs now call for Heat Alarms [Fixed point
type]
in kitchens of many new homes; its dependent on layout of property
currently.

But as In UK & Eire bulk of domestic fires start in kitchen
[a location we in Uk do not recommend smoke alarms for] heat alarms
make sound sense.

 

[Nick Markowitz]

Typical heat sensors I use to monitor enviromental conditions of equiptment
have prevented Fires in Equiptment
Example a Furnace overheating when a thermostat has failed .A Transmitter
over heating when a cooling fan stops operating
etc.
So in effect they do work to prevent possible structure fires. but on
extremely warm days I have also had false trigger, and there have been times
when the thermo disk or thermostatic device has also failed . So they are
not 100% perfect. nor are they UL Listed I always have UL listed smoke and
heat when possible. in danger areas.

135 RoR Heats do work I have seen them activate at several fire scenes but
the damage is ussaly conciderable before they activated. If a product could
be designed to take envirometal conditions into effect that would operate
more quickly than typical 135 ror with out falsing
That would be the ticket.

I have also had Passive infareds activate a Burglar Alarm when they saw
smoke .Theres a Engineering student working on possible PIR type unit to
detect fires as well I sent her
Data on fires were Burglar alarm tripped when a fire broke out

A new system that is being developed that uses CCTV
to see heat and smoke shows some promise as being something that can
accuratly detect a fire in its early stages, before major damage develops.



--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

UL Approved Heat Alarms have to be marked "This is not a life safety
device".
In Uk the British Standard does not require that marking {BS5446 Pt
2:2003}, but does insisit they are always part of a "system"
interconnected to compatible Ion &/0r photo smoke alarms.
This is why you'll rarely find battrey models.

England/Wales Building Regs now call for Heat Alarms [Fixed point
type]
in kitchens of many new homes; its dependent on layout of property
currently.

But as In UK & Eire bulk of domestic fires start in kitchen
[a location we in Uk do not recommend smoke alarms for] heat alarms
make sound sense.

"RCC" <[email protected]> wrote in message

Heat Detectors have their place in residential fire systems. The
rate-of-rise detector will trip at a certain temperature (135 degrees is
standard) and also trip if the temperature increases very rapidly.
ROR Heat Detectors are no replacement for a well designed smoke system for
building and occupant safety. I always use a combination of photo and ion
detectors on a ratio of about 5 photo to 1 ion, with at least one ion in the
system. The reason is that these detectors respond differently to
smoldering and flash fires. It is best to have both in the system. It is
getting harder to find ion detectors as the installing companies are
reluctant to really stock both type, thus the manufactures are cutting back
on models.

Back to the RoR Heat detectors, they are useful in garages and attics, where
the electronics in smokes will not operate in the cold or heat. They are
also good as supplemental to smokes in areas of the home that are subject to
non-dangerous smoke. This can be the kitchen and area around a fireplace or
wood stove. These are areas where a puff of backflow or a burnt toast could
trip a smoke and cause an alarm.

Hope this helps.

 

[Fred Mau]

Back to the RoR Heat detectors, they are useful in garages and attics,
where
the electronics in smokes will not operate in the cold or heat. They are
also good as supplemental to smokes in areas of the home that are subject
to
non-dangerous smoke. This can be the kitchen and area around a fireplace
or
wood stove. These are areas where a puff of backflow or a burnt toast
could
trip a smoke and cause an alarm.

Hope this helps.

In attics, I would go with a UV/IR detector before a RoR Heat detector. Of
course, your mileage may vary depending on where in the country you live,
but when I lived in Florida a few years back, it wasn't uncommon to see 140
F in an attic.
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/baihp/pubs/year4/fieldmonitoring6.htm and most
heat detectors trip at 135 or 200 F. The 135's are too sensitive for an
attic and the 200's are too far in the opposite direction - you practically
need a bonfire to set them off.

Likewise in a kitchen - RoR can be set off by a burst of steam (been there,
done that). But kitchens are problematic anyway - You can't use a UV/IR if
you have a gas stove, burnt toast or even smoke from a broiler will set off
a smoke detector, and steam will set off an RoR.

Elsewhere in a house, I have no problem with RoRs - but only as a backup to
smoke detectors, not as a primary.

- FM -

 

[Robert Bass]

In attics, I would go with a UV/IR detector

Do I assume correctly that by "UV/IR" you are referring to a photoelectric
smoke detector? If so, that's not the best choice. Smoke detectors should
not be placed in dusty locations or places with temperature and humidity
extremes.

before a RoR Heat detector. Of course, your
mileage may vary depending on where in the
country you live, but when I lived in Florida
a few years back, it wasn't uncommon to see
140 F in an attic.

Attics can get that hot even in New England during the summer. For that
reason you should consider using 194ºF Rate-of-Rise detectors in attics.

The 135's are too sensitive for an attic and
the 200's are too far in the opposite direction
- you practically need a bonfire to set them
off.

I disagree. Rate-of-Rise heat detectors do not require a major fire to
activate. The key is the "rate" at which the temperature rises -- not just
the maximum rated temperature of the detector. A 194º ROR will to
increasing temperature the same as a 135ºF. The only difference between the
two is the melting temperature of the plug holding the disc. This is
entirely separate from the RoR sensing device.

Likewise in a kitchen - RoR can be set off by
a burst of steam (been there, done that). But
kitchens are problematic anyway...

True, kitchens can be a source of problems. I've used 135º RoR detectors in
them for many years without problems though. I try to keep the sensor as
far from the oven as possible and that may account for the different
experience.

- You can't use a UV/IR if you have a gas stove,
burnt toast or even smoke from a broiler will set
off a smoke detector, and steam will set off an
RoR.

Agreed, you can not use smoke detectors in kitchens. Disagree about RoR
sensors though.

Elsewhere in a house, I have no problem with
RoRs - but only as a backup to smoke detectors,
not as a primary.

Yup. They're useful for ancillary detection but they are NOT life safety
devices. FTR, the wind-up devices mentioned by one poster are trash and
should not be used under any circumstances.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

Do I assume correctly that by "UV/IR" you are referring to a photoelectric
smoke detector? If so, that's not the best choice. Smoke detectors
should not be placed in dusty locations or places with temperature and
humidity extremes.

I think he means a "flame detector".