invention/adapter

[donkey]

we are not saying DON'T try, we are just stating 2 obvious facts
A) unless the product is cheaper then the 48cents to replace the whole socket it won't be viable
B) the amount of times this product will need to be used is not high as most houses already have new sockets which last longer than they did before.

having said that I don't consider this a band aid fix. I think it will add life to a socket. but having said that why would you spend $5 on extending the life of a 48cent part?

If I came up with a genius idea to help extend the life of capacitors by 20% at a cost of $100 per capacitor, I too would find no one willing to buy the product

 

[Electrobrains]

I wrote:

...when they arrive at whatever place!

Again(!): Of course such unit is not for permanent installations (especially not in hospitals).
BUT, it could be used by mobile professionals, together with portable equipment, to ensure that their instruments/tools/etc. would not be damaged, dangerously wired or suddenly suffer from a power loss through a bad outlet. This when they enter unknown areas, where they cannot/are not allowed to/have no time to or simply don't want to call an electrician to change a power outlet.
Can nobody see this obvious field of usage?

p.s. A tip for Ruxton:
If you anyway build such "multi talent", then you could also include a cheap LED indicator for that the voltage is within some specified range (eg. 115V +/- 20%).

 

[CocaCola]

BUT, it could be used by mobile professionals, together with portable equipment, to ensure that their instruments/tools/etc. would not be damaged, dangerously wired or suddenly suffer from a power loss through a bad outlet.

There is already high end proven units with this sole purpose... The answer is to not use the faulty outlet in the first place, not "make it work" while potentially increasing the likelihood of further complications or failures of that already broken outlet...

This when they enter unknown areas, where they cannot/are not allowed to/have no time to/don't want to call an electrician to change a power outlet.
Can nobody see this obvious field of use?

Yeah, and it's even more limited than the original intended use... Do you really believe 'professionals' are going to pick up this thing instead of the high end far better functioning power protection solutions already in existence and use? What does it offer that the others don't? Most medical equipment for field use is battery operated anyway...

May I ask you how many of these you personally will be purchasing to fix your loose outlets in your residence?

 

[Electrobrains]

If I came up with a genius idea to help extend the life of capacitors by 20% at a cost of $100 per capacitor, I too would find no one willing to buy the product

For sure you would! Even I would consider buying your capacitors if I'd been involved in a space project or in building a million $ machine!
(unfortunately, I am not at the moment )

 

[donkey]

its cost versus results. in this case as with my example the results do not warrant the cost.
having an idea is a great thing. taking criticism both positive and negative is how you make sure you don't spend too much time going down the wrong path.

 

[Electrobrains]

There is already high end proven units with this sole purpose... The answer is to not use the faulty outlet in the first place, not "make it work" while potentially increasing the likelihood of further complications or failures of that already broken outlet...

Dear friend, you just linked to a fallacy site (Argumentum ad Metum & False Dichotomy)!
Can you please explain how a person will know before (and not use in first place) a faulty outlet that may work only the first minute?

Yeah, and it's even more limited than the original intended use... Do you really believe 'professionals' are going to pick up this thing instead of the high end far better functioning power protection solutions already in existence and use? What does it offer that the others don't? Most medical equipment for field use is battery operated anyway...

It has the unique gripping function!

May I ask you how many of these you personally will be purchasing to fix your loose outlets in your residence?

Third time now: None in my own residence! But I would definitely consider the product if I were a first aid worker out in my car, getting an emergency call with the batteries of my mobile equipment almost discharged.

 

[donkey]

I don't know bout switzerland but here in australia our paramedics have a setup that utilises car battery to provide backup power. this helps to keep things topped up.
also add to this that any decent paramedic will take their last patient to hospital and then check their equipment to see what is working or not and exchange what they need either back at base or call their team leader to bring battery to their next job. their team leader is always on the go.
you keep talking about paramedics and first aid, but so many accidents happen away from power points. yes you get the occasional one inside a residence but the majority happen out in public, car accidents, heart attacks, broken leg, high blood pressure, diabetics, the list goes on. yes there are a few times these occur in your home, but the majority of the time its at a shopping centre, concert, night club etc. and in most of these places the power is turned off so people don't spill drinks on them, tamper with them and electrocute themselves etc. in this case having something that plugs into a bad socket is useless as there is no power anyway.
to top that of if the plug is faulty and all this item does is make it work properly then you have to wonder about the usability of the wiring, could a surge go through the device and render the sensitive EEG useless. could the wires be bare and old, which could start sparking when a load is put on them?
if the socket is old its best not to use it. in emergency situations you would not try to find this device to plug it in, you would be trying to save someone and using the powerpoint straight.
professionals (paramedics etc) WILL have backup measures already even if it means leaving their engine run to charge a device up.
the list is endless and this product while a good idea is ultimately redundant as so many other devices help in EMERGENCY situations and when its not an emergency you can spend just 48cents and replace the whole dang thing.

 

[Electrobrains]

Sigh, I am not interested in discussing paramedics backup equipment.

I am just trying to illustrate that this idea is good and might find a place on the market!

I'll give another example:
I would consider the product if I were a carpenter on my way to Mr. Do-It-Yourself's house with my metal cased drill machine, to do some urgent work down in his damp basement.

 

[donkey]

thats why we have cordless powertools. and every tradesman I know of have multiple backup batteries.

 

[Electrobrains]

Hehe, you don't give up!
Anyway, this is a job where you need a hammer drill machine, to put some screws into the concrete wall (and I have not yet seen anyone doing that with a battery driven tool).
And by the way, my mason colleague is also on his way with his small, metal cased compressor to Mr. HelpYourself's house. The neighbor, Mr. NotUnderstandingNothingButDoingItAnyway has just changed a faulty power outlet for him, and happily replaced it with a new 48cents one!
Help, give me Ruxton's telephone number!

 

[donkey]

ok this is my last post on this topic cos I seriously have said it all. it is a great idea, but will serve no purpose. if for example someone was renovating a house then they could remove the old plug and put in a new plug, there are extension leads, there are batteries, there are hundreds of ways around this device. and the only reason I could see it being neccessary is for a long term solution but the cost has to be UNDER the cost of replacing the socket.

 

[davenn]

Hehe, you don't give up!
Anyway, this is a job where you need a hammer drill machine, to put some screws into the concrete wall (and I have not yet seen anyone doing that with a battery driven tool).

thats cuz you dont get around enough

my cordless drill has quite a good hammer mode for drilling holes to put in rawl (sp?) plugs for screws

as others have said .... no way would I use an item that didnt fix the problem with an outlet properly. for the cheap cost of the replacement outlet I would just do the sensible thing and replace it as soon as i saw that its getting a bit weak holding a plug/ powerpack etc

cheers
Dave

 

[Electrobrains]

my cordless drill has quite a good hammer mode for drilling holes to put in rawl (sp?) plugs for screws

Yea, but this is a professional guy, who prefers 2kW heavy-duty tools!.

As I said (now for the 4th time):
I (agreeing with you all) neither see this invention as a thing to be used by people permanently in their own homes.

But I definitely see it as a potential new product, that could be used by a lot of people who are out of their homes. Mostly in conjunction with portable equipment. For safety and reliability reasons.

 

[CDRIVE]

Hehe, you don't give up!
Anyway, this is a job where you need a hammer drill machine, to put some screws into the concrete wall (and I have not yet seen anyone doing that with a battery driven tool).

Then you haven't looked very hard.

 

[CDRIVE]

You do realize that this is going to trip GFIs?
https://www.electronicspoint.com/at...-invention-adapter-powerpolarityindicator.jpg

Besides that, and I've said it before, but perhaps differently... It will NEVER be approved, with maybe the exception of third world countries... But there again, I've seen welding while wearing shorts and bare feet.

No matter how you slice it.. safety agencies are not going to permit an intentional connection to the ground leg except as a temporary measurement device . It's not supposed to be a conductor unless something is wrong.

You are not doing the OP a service by pandering to something that will never have the potential of returning even a fraction of the startup costs, no less the manufacture, advertising and distribution costs.

 

[KMoffett]

Yea, but this is a professional guy, who prefers 2kW heavy-duty tools!. ...

... For safety and reliability reasons.

OK, you intend to use a 2KW tool in a defective outlet. If the contact tension is bad it may be that the contacts may have overheated in the past due to excessive loads or corrosion. That means the the internal wire connects are also suspect. If I found an outlet with bad contacts in pressure situation, I would use an extension cord (properly rated for my load) to another outlet.

You seem to be plugging you ears and yelling "La-la-la-la-la", while very experienced people are handing you real world advice. Not every seemingly good idea is practical under close scrutiny.

But, keep throwing out examples of where you think "lots" of people might use it and look seriously at the responses.

Ken

 

[Electrobrains]

You do realize that this is going to trip GFIs?

With 2mA I don't think any RCCB's (or GFI's) will trip. As far as I have seen (in Europe), the trip current is mostly 10 or 30mA, rarely 6mA. Maybe you can show me specs of GFI's tripping down at 2mA? It would really interest me.
In any case, I specially included the warning concerning this problem.

Besides that, and I've said it before, but perhaps differently... It will NEVER be approved, with maybe the exception of third world countries... But there again, I've seen welding while wearing shorts and bare feet.

No matter how you slice it.. safety agencies are not going to permit an intentional connection to the ground leg except as a temporary measurement device . It's not supposed to be a conductor unless something is wrong.

I think you are wrong again!
Normal surge protectors you buy out there have varistors or surge arresters "connected to ground" as common mode over voltage protection (and between L and N as differential mode protection). The leakage current is low, but it's there, brother.
To make a commercial product, of course only UL approved components can be used.
(as info: normally, when a machine is going through isolation tests for approvals etc., the varistors have to be temporarily disconnected)

Another component that is especially made to leak current into the ground path, is the Y-capacitor! You will find them in many well designed power supplies and input filters of all kinds of apparatuses.
If you read through my comments here, you can also see that I suggest that Y-caps are used if the (high voltage approved) resistors would not pass UL approval.
The maximum Y-cap is 4.7nF. That would give us (at 115V/60 Hz) a small, but useful current of approximately 0.2mA. Of course, the circuit diagram would have to change.

I have been working for years developing commercial products in this area and I know you have to very cautious. That's why I suggested to Ruxton to get advised directly from UL.

You are not doing the OP a service by pandering to something that will never have the potential of returning even a fraction of the startup costs, no less the manufacture, advertising and distribution costs.

I "abstain from" commenting on that one...

 

[Electrobrains]

OK, you intend to use a 2KW tool in a defective outlet. If the contact tension is bad it may be that the contacts may have overheated in the past due to excessive loads or corrosion. That means the the internal wire connects are also suspect. If I found an outlet with bad contacts in pressure situation, I would use an extension cord (properly rated for my load) to another outlet.

You seem to be plugging you ears and yelling "La-la-la-la-la", while very experienced people are handing you real world advice. Not every seemingly good idea is practical under close scrutiny...
Ken

No Ken, I am not intending to use any tool in any defective outlet.

I am intending to avoid using my tool in any potentially defective outlet.

I am respecting all of you "very experienced people", but it doesn't mean you are right everywhere. For sure I don't know everything either, but till now you have not, in my opinion, disproved that Ruxon's idea is very good!

 

[CDRIVE]

I think you are wrong again!
Normal surge protectors you buy out there have varistors or surge arresters "connected to ground" as common mode over voltage protection (and between L and N as differential mode protection). The leakage current is low, but it's there, brother.

What you're describing is integral to the device plugged into the receptacle, not the receptacle itself. Regarding the GFI.. I don't have the energy or desire to search out U.S. or foreign standards regarding trip current. I believe it's much lower here than you state.

 

[CocaCola]

and I have not yet seen anyone doing that with a battery driven tool

Proof positive you lack the professional exposure to the situations you argue... I have seen this done more time than I care do count, heck I have done it many many times... And yes all in the professional fields, a vast majority of professionals have moved away from corded devices for many task...

Dear friend, you just linked to a fallacy site (Argumentum ad Metum & False Dichotomy)!

Yes, I did because you using fallacies to support your argument... FYI using a fallacy (or multiple fallacies) to support your argument is a sign that you are grasping for straws and your argument can't stand on it's own merits...

And you continue to do it with your examples, you are attempting to paint a black and white two option scenario to support your argument where it doesn't exist and there are many other options and choices that can be made...

Can you please explain how a person will know before (and not use in first place) a faulty outlet that may work only the first minute?

So you suggest that the people use this device ALL the time even in perfectly good outlets and thus increase the potential for an issue?

It has the unique gripping function!

And you know this how, are you a buddy of the inventor here to hype his invention? Toss up the Patent number so I can have a look at this 'unique' system that will be clearly documented in the patent application that is in the public domain, than I can decide for myself if it's half as unique as you suggest...

You seem to be plugging you ears and yelling "La-la-la-la-la", while very experienced people are handing you real world advice. Not every seemingly good idea is practical under close scrutiny.

Very well stated...