AA & 9V battery short circuit current

R

Robert

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello everyone,

A battery powered product is headed for “intrinsically safe” certification.
The main test documented in prior certificates uses the open circuit
voltage and short circuit current from the power source to see if an
explosive mixture of gases can be ignited. The circuit capacitance is
placed across the combination of a bench supply and a limiting resistor for
the test.

I am looking for information on the short circuit current for 9V and AA
batteries. This varies by manufacturer, model, and from battery to
battery. I would also like to hear if anyone has ever tested small
batteries for short circuit current.

Have a good day,
Robert
 
J

Jeff L

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
Hello everyone,

A battery powered product is headed for "intrinsically safe" certification.
The main test documented in prior certificates uses the open circuit
voltage and short circuit current from the power source to see if an
explosive mixture of gases can be ignited. The circuit capacitance is
placed across the combination of a bench supply and a limiting resistor for
the test.

I am looking for information on the short circuit current for 9V and AA
batteries. This varies by manufacturer, model, and from battery to
battery. I would also like to hear if anyone has ever tested small
batteries for short circuit current.

Short circuit current depends on a lot of things such as, in no particular
order:
- state of charge,
- temperature,
- age of cell
- Chemistry of cell
- Brand of cell
- Internal resistance
- Length of time cell is sitting idle
- Revision of cell
- Terminal material and attachment method, internal and external
- etc

For example, NiCd AA's could produce 100+A for a short duration. Cheap Zinc
based AA cells might produce a short circuit current of a few amps. A 9V
battery short circuit current would likely be around an order of magnitude
less.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Robert"
I am looking for information on the short circuit current for 9V and AA
batteries. This varies by manufacturer, model, and from battery to
battery. I would also like to hear if anyone has ever tested small
batteries for short circuit current.

** If you are after "worst case" values, then look up the figures for "
internal resistance" for AA size NiMH cells and 9 volt NiMH batteries on
their maker's sites.

A few rechargeable AA cells in series will have no trouble setting plastic
coated wires and PCB component & tracks on fire. Then explode themselves.

Products using them are NOT safe unless there is no possible way the cells
can be shorted and there is a fuse link or other current limiting device (
ie polyswitch) in series with the battery supply.

BTW: NiMH AA cells are sold all over the place now, so any product using
"loose" cells can expect to wind up with them installed.


...... Phil
 
R

Robert

Jan 1, 1970
0
---
Wouldn't the various manufacturers be the best sources for that data
and wouldn't it behoove you to make the short circuit current
measurements yourself instead of trusting someone else's data to be
good?

JF

Have not found anything on the manufacturers web sites.

The only measurements that will cound are the ones that CSA perform.

Hoping to work a bit smarter. My aplication is low current. If one brand
or model tends to have a lower short circuit current, it would make
acceptance testing less of a problem. As a department of one, there is
more to do than will get done.

Have a good day,
Robert
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Robert"
Have not found anything on the manufacturers web sites.


** Hey dope - if you simply divide the cell / battery voltage by the
internal resistance figure - you have the max short circuit current.

The only measurements that will cound are the ones that CSA perform.


** This is utter bollocks.

AA and 9 volt batteries are USER REPLACEABLE !!

Hoping to work a bit smarter. My aplication is low current. If one brand
or model tends to have a lower short circuit current, it would make
acceptance testing less of a problem. As a department of one, there is
more to do than will get done.


** This is utter bollocks.

AA cells and 9 volt batteries are USER REPLACEABLE !!

You MUST work with a worst case scenario.

Means you MUST design you device to be safe despite the HUGE current
available from AAs and the latest 9 volt types.



...... Phil
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Have not found anything on the manufacturers web sites.

It's there on the data sheet, it's called the internal resistance and
cell voltage - add ohms law and you have the maximum short circuit
current when the cell is fresh.

You are designing a product and didn't know this??

Dave.
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Robert"


** If you are after "worst case" values,  then look up the figures for "
internal resistance" for AA size NiMH cells and 9 volt NiMH batteries on
their maker's sites.

A few rechargeable AA cells in series will have no trouble setting plastic
coated wires and PCB component & tracks on fire. Then explode themselves.

A pair is more than enough to source 10+A (initally closer to a
50-100A transient spark) for plenty long enough to reach red heat
burning off wire insulation and PCB tracks. The chemistry starts to
get out of hand pretty quickly when only the cells internal resistance
is the limiting factor. Heat gases, boiling electrolyte, venting and
then explosion releasing cell contents. Sanyo reckon 1.2v and 0.025
ohm at so around 50A 1000Hz. I have seen higher initial instantaneous
short circuit currents than that.

http://www.eneloop.info/uploads/media/Datasheet_-_HR-3UTG_01.pdf

The old Kodak DC-120 camera managed to draw 2A continuously from 4x AA
cells in worst case of macro mode with flash enabled. Modern digital
cameras are a lot more frugal although their power packs still pack
quite a wallop.
Products using them are NOT safe unless there is no possible way the cells
can be shorted and there is a fuse link or other current limiting device (
ie polyswitch) in series with the battery supply.

Or better that a cell is used in a physically encapsulated way such
that it cannot ever source a high current no matter what the external
provovcation. The stuff I recall for flame proof areas also included
armoured impact casing and devious mechanical interlocks to ensure
that no-one could ever open one without the requisite servicing tool.
BTW:   NiMH  AA cells are sold all over the place now, so any productusing
"loose" cells can expect to wind up with them installed.

Yep. If it will fit then one day someone will do it. You also
sometimes find AAA cells wrapped with cardboard to make up the
diameter and extended with folded KitKat foil or even a mixture of
different capacity cells which is another *really* bad practice. But
the guy just wanted to get it working again and bodged around with
what was in his toolbox. It is annoying that field engineers who
should know better do these sort of things as a quick interim fix and
then forget about them until something really bad happens (like the
weakest cell dies horribly).

I find the prospect of the OP designing something that is intended to
be intrinsically safe in an explosive atmospher particularly scary in
the light of his question here. Hopefully the testing authorities will
do their job adequately unlike USPTO.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Martin Brown"
"Phil Allison"
** If you are after "worst case" values, then look up the figures for "
internal resistance" for AA size NiMH cells and 9 volt NiMH batteries on
their maker's sites.

A few rechargeable AA cells in series will have no trouble setting plastic
coated wires and PCB component & tracks on fire. Then explode themselves.

A pair is more than enough to source 10+A (initally closer to a
50-100A transient spark) for plenty long enough to reach red heat
burning off wire insulation and PCB tracks. The chemistry starts to
get out of hand pretty quickly when only the cells internal resistance
is the limiting factor. Heat gases, boiling electrolyte, venting and
then explosion releasing cell contents. Sanyo reckon 1.2v and 0.025
ohm at so around 50A 1000Hz. I have seen higher initial instantaneous
short circuit currents than that.

http://www.eneloop.info/uploads/media/Datasheet_-_HR-3UTG_01.pdf

The old Kodak DC-120 camera managed to draw 2A continuously from 4x AA
cells in worst case of macro mode with flash enabled. Modern digital
cameras are a lot more frugal although their power packs still pack
quite a wallop.
Products using them are NOT safe unless there is no possible way the cells
can be shorted and there is a fuse link or other current limiting device (
ie polyswitch) in series with the battery supply.

Or better that a cell is used in a physically encapsulated way such
that it cannot ever source a high current no matter what the external
provovcation. The stuff I recall for flame proof areas also included
armoured impact casing and devious mechanical interlocks to ensure
that no-one could ever open one without the requisite servicing tool.
BTW: NiMH AA cells are sold all over the place now, so any product using
"loose" cells can expect to wind up with them installed.

Yep. If it will fit then one day someone will do it. You also
sometimes find AAA cells wrapped with cardboard to make up the
diameter and extended with folded KitKat foil or even a mixture of
different capacity cells which is another *really* bad practice. But
the guy just wanted to get it working again and bodged around with
what was in his toolbox. It is annoying that field engineers who
should know better do these sort of things as a quick interim fix and
then forget about them until something really bad happens (like the
weakest cell dies horribly).

I find the prospect of the OP designing something that is intended to
be intrinsically safe in an explosive atmospher particularly scary in
the light of his question here.


** The OP is an utter ASS.

There is NO WAY a unit containing AA cells or a 9 volt battery will ever
be allowed inside a potentially explosive environment. It will have to
remain outside and be linked by an intrinsically safe interface to whatever
sensor is involved.

My comments were only about the danger that now plagues all devices that
allow the user to replace the cells or battery with whatever will fit.

Even a common old AA alkaline cell will explode if shorted ( ie by an ill
designed battery compartment ) or if fitted in reverse in a series battery.



...... Phil
 
R

Robert

Jan 1, 1970
0
** The OP is an utter ASS.

There is NO WAY a unit containing AA cells or a 9 volt battery will
ever be allowed inside a potentially explosive environment. It will
have to remain outside and be linked by an intrinsically safe
interface to whatever sensor is involved.

Hello everyone,

The signal to noise ratio from google groups is quite low this morning. It
may be time to reconsider some sort of filtering. Having received usefull
information from unlikely places tells me to resist just blocking all
google groups posts.

Is there a quick way of blocking all posts from google on XNews?

The public records will show many such devices have been approved. The
last approval testing on this product showed over 10 amps from some 9 Volt
batteries. That unit passes. Factors include how fast and how much energy
is released.

'Anyone can speak Troll,' said Fred dismissively,
'all you have to do is point and grunt.'
"Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" - J.K. Rowling (2000)
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Robert the LIAR "
"Phil Allison"

Hello everyone,


** **** off - dickhead.

The public records will show many such devices have been approved.


** But not for use *within* the hazardous area.

You LYING POS.



....... Phil
 
R

Robert

Jan 1, 1970
0
Google Groups,

Please accept by sincere apologies. You were falsely accused.
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
It would be allowed inside a truly FlameProof certified casing. How do
you think electric miners lamps work?

The point here is that an AA battery cell is not intrinsically safe.
It can source way too much current and juicy sparks.

Anything that might spark internally is generally expected to be able
to cope with the worst case explosive mixture inside it being
detonated without showing any external signs of leaking flame or
sparks. The kit might or might not work properly after this test, but
it must not become a source of ignition.
The signal to noise ratio from google groups is quite low this morning.  It
may be time to reconsider some sort of filtering.  Having received usefull
information from unlikely places tells me to resist just blocking all
google groups posts.  

Is there a quick way of blocking all posts from google on XNews?

I suggest you learn to read headers as well as about Ohms law V = IR.
The manufacturuers specify V and R it is left as an excercise to the
reader to compute I.
The public records will show many such devices have been approved.  The
last approval testing on this product showed over 10 amps from some 9 Volt
batteries.  That unit passes.  Factors include how fast and how much energy
is released.

Lets see an example of one of these mythical devices that has been
declared intrinsically safe with a 10A 9v spark source available
internally. When you are in an explosive atmosphere you do not want
any calorific sparks at all. Even inductors are carefully RC snubbed
to keep the stored energy from causing trouble.

I think you are confusing FlameProof and Intrinsically safe
designations. See
http://www.britishtelephones.com/flp.htm
for a brief introduction to the differences.
'Anyone can speak Troll,' said Fred dismissively,
'all you have to do is point and grunt.'
"Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" - J.K. Rowling (2000)

I think you need to heed that advice.
Be sure to video the testing it should be amusing to watch on U-Tube
as your kit explodes.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
R

Robert

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hmm. If you are certifying the device as intrinsically safe, you are
going to want to do your testing/analysis with the worst case
possible. That would be the battery with the highest s.c
current/lowest internal resistance.

Someone is apt to ignore any vendor/part number specifications and
replace the battery with the first one that fits found in the parts
bin. This includes the possibility of replacing an alkaline battery
with a NiCad or NiMH battery, both of which may have lower internal
resistances if my memory serves me correctly.

I am sure that they will. Our customers return units (for repair or
annual calibration) without the ground strap. Stating that we can't
afford enough liability insurance to do otherwise, the ground strap is
replaced and the customer charged for it. It is imposable to keep
people from doing foolish things. The nameplate will have a list of
approved batteries. The manual will probably have some words on why.
We will remove batteries that are not on the list.

Back to the short circuit current. From scraps of information, lithium
batteries seam offer the highest currents. They also have a reputation
for spectacular failure. Fortunately I did not have to talk very long
to get them off of the wish list.

Look for the test results towards the end.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007power/...n6pres_RBYRNESJtServicesApr07presentation.pdf

Robert
 
R

Robert

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you need an intrinsically safe level, please consider sealed
apparatus. Otherwise the limits are like 50 uA and 5 V at all times.
Moreover applications like explosimeters, are constrained to replacing
batteries in clear atmospheres.

This is a rework of an existing product that is already approved
intrinsically safe. Unfortunately, like many businesses, documentation
and history from the prior approval was not maintained.

The case is well sealed. Fortunately this redesign is just a new circuit
board and replacing the 9V battery with two AAs.

Robert
 
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