Advantages of Parallel Hz

K

kony

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm just musing, please correct where I'm right off track.

It's current that causes heat rise (I^2R).

.... and voltage (accuracy of voltage control method), and
frequency.


For things to work, current
must flow, and for current to flow, voltage must be applied.

Fair enough


For
minaturisation, smaller currents will need higher voltages.

No with current tech, miniaturization means lower voltage is
required but losses become higher. Thus current higher
too.

For things to go faster, larger currents are required, and so larger
voltages are required to push these currents.

No, see above. For things to get substantially faster we'd
need a shift in technology, either different manufacturing
method and material or what they're presently doing, just
tacking on addt'l cores they can fit in space allowed by a
certain process size shrink - onto the point where it
becomes unaffordable to make it a larger core.


If you limit to non-fan
cooling,

Why this arbitrary stipulation?



you limit current, and therefore limit speed and capacity.

Yes within any given tech, if you target a thermal design
power low enough that *reasonable* passive cooling is
possible, you will limit _voltage_ which inherantly limits
current, and these two limitations using a given tech,
inherantly limit the ceiling speed that tech can sustain
stabily. I don't know what you mean by capacity except to
the extent that a given tech and process size with a given
voltage will require X amount of current per amount of
*circuitry*, or in a logical sense, limiting circuitry or
stable attainable speed within the aforementioned
limitations (given same tech) limits performance (though
optimizable for certain tasks the more one specializes in
specific function CPUs instead of broader operations like in
a PC).
 
... and voltage (accuracy of voltage control method), and
frequency.

But isn't it the curent that does the heating?
Fair enough

No with current tech, miniaturization means lower voltage is
required but losses become higher. Thus current higher
too.


No, see above. For things to get substantially faster we'd
need a shift in technology, either different manufacturing
method and material or what they're presently doing, just
tacking on addt'l cores they can fit in space allowed by a
certain process size shrink - onto the point where it
becomes unaffordable to make it a larger core.

Why this arbitrary stipulation?

Because this is what Radium stipulated.
Yes within any given tech, if you target a thermal design
power low enough that *reasonable* passive cooling is
possible, you will limit _voltage_ which inherantly limits
current, and these two limitations using a given tech,
inherantly limit the ceiling speed that tech can sustain
stabily. I don't know what you mean by capacity except to
the extent that a given tech and process size with a given
voltage will require X amount of current per amount of
*circuitry*, or in a logical sense, limiting circuitry or
stable attainable speed within the aforementioned
limitations (given same tech) limits performance (though
optimizable for certain tasks the more one specializes in
specific function CPUs instead of broader operations like in
a PC).

Capacity is processes per second.
Thanks for that, Kony, jack
 
R

Radium

Jan 1, 1970
0
My dream PC is as hardware, real-time, and digital as possible. In
addition, it uses the least amount of buffering required [hopefully
none] and experiences the least amount of latency possible [again,
hopefully none].
This may be your dream but it may also be a nightmare. You also said
you wanted low power and no fan. If you want a lot of speed, you
really want a good cooling system and a whole lot of power. If you
want to make a faster system with low power, you want to make use of
things like lookup tables and hashes.
Couldn't the problem of excessive heat and large use of power be
solved [or at least mitigated] by using lower voltages while still
running things in real-time [and with the least amount of storage,
software, buffering, and latency possible] and not using fans?

No. It largely can't be avoided. If you have to do your sine function
from first principles and you want speed, you need a huge number of
operations per second.

Do you think the heat generated and power requirements will decrease
when photonic chips are available?

AFAIK, photonic circuits produce less heat than electric circuits.
However I am aware that even when photonics becomes the norm [i.e. if
is does], electricity will still be necessary for power supply.
 
D

Daniel Mandic

Jan 1, 1970
0
Radium said:
AFAIK, photonic circuits produce less heat than electric circuits.
However I am aware that even when photonics becomes the norm [i.e. if
is does], electricity will still be necessary for power supply.


That's all seen in Star Wars. Maybe you can go on with the Lightbeam
Monitor, fast as Lightspeed. This device you will need for your
Lightcomputer, otherwise it makes no sense at all.

The strongest chain is only so strong as its weakest limb.



Best regards,

Daniel Mandic
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Daniel said:
AFAIK, photonic circuits produce less heat than electric circuits.
However I am aware that even when photonics becomes the norm [i.e. if
is does], electricity will still be necessary for power supply.

That's all seen in Star Wars. Maybe you can go on with the Lightbeam
Monitor, fast as Lightspeed. This device you will need for your
Lightcomputer, otherwise it makes no sense at all.

The strongest chain is only so strong as its weakest limb.
LINK.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
K

kony

Jan 1, 1970
0
But isn't it the curent that does the heating?

No, current only flows based upon the difference in
potential voltage. It is a result not cause.
 
R

Rob Warnock

Jan 1, 1970
0
+---------------
| [email protected] wrote:
| >>>It's current that causes heat rise (I^2R).
| >>... and voltage (accuracy of voltage control method), and frequency.
| >But isn't it the curent that does the heating?
|
| No, current only flows based upon the difference in
| potential voltage. It is a result not cause.
+---------------

No, it takes *both* current & voltage to get heat!!

Look, it's like any other mechanical potential -- gravity,
springs, whatever. You have potential energy -- a difference
in height, compression of a spring, voltage between two points
in a circuit -- and then you have *work* (actual energy consumed),
which is the exertion of a force across some "distance" of potential
energy. When a rock falls off a shelf, its potential energy of
position is converted first into kinetic energy (increasing speed
as it falls), and then into thermal energy when it hits the floor.
When the rock *slides* at a near-constant speed down a rouch ramp,
the same total thermal energy is released -- it's just that the
conversion from potential energy to thermal energy is more continuous.

Likewise, when an electron is sitting on one side of a charged
capacitor, it's not doing any work -- its energy is all potential.
It is not until the electron flows "downhill" from the higher
(negative) potential to the lower that its potential energy
is converted to heat (in a series of very many small increases
of kinetic energy followed immediately by conversion to thermal
energy as it bounces around inside whatever conductor it's in).
"Current" is just a count of the number of electrons flowing
per unit time (Q/t), so the more current (I) is flowing across
a larger voltage (V) the greater the dissipated thermal energy (E),
that is, E = I * V * t. Or the more familiar P = I * V, if you
want power instead of total energy. But it takes *both* voltage
and current to get heat!

Frequency only comes into it if you're charging and discharging
capacitors. The number of electrons (in Coulombs) or "mass" entrained
in a capacitor is C * V, and the voltage is V, of course, so the
total available potential energy ("mass" * "height") is C * (V^2)
[or 0.5*C*V^2, I forget]. Charging the cap stores energy in the cap
[*and* dissipates energy in the wires leading to the cap]; discharging
a cap dissipates energy in the wires leading away from the cap [due
to the current (charge/second) flowing across a potential voltage].
One full change/discharge cycle dissipates some specific amount of
energy [never mind the exact constants], which is roughly linearly
proportional to the value of the capacitance times the square of
the voltage. Since each cycle dissipates a fixed amount of energy,
the more cycles per second you have, the more *power* (energy/second)
you dissipate. Q.E.D.


-Rob
 
K

kony

Jan 1, 1970
0
+---------------
| [email protected] wrote:
| >>>It's current that causes heat rise (I^2R).
| >>... and voltage (accuracy of voltage control method), and frequency.
| >But isn't it the curent that does the heating?
|
| No, current only flows based upon the difference in
| potential voltage. It is a result not cause.
+---------------

No, it takes *both* current & voltage to get heat!!

Do we really have to do this Electricity 101 nonsense while
you get up to speed with what you didn't understand?

Yes both current and voltage are *present* but this is a
discussion about changing parameters.

The voltage causes the current, and the current does create
heat, but "does the heating" is a vague concept that implies
an active rather than passive role. The poster was looking
for a distinction when there was a way to change the heat
level and that is not a scenario where we can just impose
current limiting.

There is no active role in the current, it is only following
the input voltage. Even with the inductors in typical
motherboard supply circuits, there's voltage feedback so
even then passive current control is only a means to a
target voltage.

Remember, the poster was trying to control heat and thinking
"focus on one or the other", essentially. So the entire
point was to differentiate between both voltage and current
even though both are of course related.
 
M

Marra

Jan 1, 1970
0
That was already made. They called it a Commodore 64.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

But a C64 wont run PCBCAD21 tho !
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Marra said:
But a C64 wont run PCBCAD21 tho !


That wasn't specified in the post I replied to, but there WAS CAD
software for the Commodore line.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
D

Daniel Mandic

Jan 1, 1970
0
Marra said:
But a C64 wont run PCBCAD21 tho !


Amplifiers (good one, of course) are designed on i386 CPU driven
System.

?



Best regards,

Daniel Mandic
 
D

Don Bowey

Jan 1, 1970
0
Amplifiers (good one, of course) are designed on i386 CPU driven
System.

?



Best regards,

Daniel Mandic

Nonsense. They are designed in your head. The final calculations could be
done on a C64 or on paper.
 
D

Daniel Mandic

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Nonsense. They are designed in your head. The final calculations
could be done on a C64 or on paper.


Hi Don!


How that? I thought it's developed in the head. How could you design
something without a tool!?

The screen resolution of the C64 is too low and the calculating power
would be too low too, to do some kind of digital PCB designing. An i386
or a MC680x0 at least, IMHO.
Smaller Boards are probably better done with artificial methods, than
using a C64 :).



Best regards,

Daniel Mandic
 
D

Don Bowey

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Don!


How that? I thought it's developed in the head. How could you design
something without a tool!?

By knowing how components work.
The screen resolution of the C64 is too low and the calculating power
would be too low too, to do some kind of digital PCB designing. An i386
or a MC680x0 at least, IMHO.
Smaller Boards are probably better done with artificial methods, than
using a C64 :).



Best regards,

Daniel Mandic

Tool? I had a tool, usually a 2H and a pad, and sometimes a calculator. I
programmed the C64 to do the longer calculations. And sometimes I used a the
sliderule. It's still how I like to work, except now days the computer is a
Mac.

So....... How did you design things when you only had an 8086 computer.
 
D

Daniel Mandic

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Tool? I had a tool, usually a 2H and a pad, and sometimes a
calculator. I programmed the C64 to do the longer calculations. And
sometimes I used a the sliderule. It's still how I like to work,
except now days the computer is a Mac.

So....... How did you design things when you only had an 8086
computer.

Hi Don!



Hmmm, I understand. It's still developing for me, except your 2H and
the pad, and sometimes a calculator.

Designs varied in times. I like the old, with curves (obviuosly
hand-routed).


A 8086 I would place somewhere at the plain 68000. Much better for PCB
designing than the C64, due to hi-res Gfx.



What you know Don is nice. But today design software can be used by
anyone, without knowledge how the circuit has been developed.



Best Regards,

Daniel Mandic
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Daniel said:
What you know Don is nice. But today design software can be used by
anyone, without knowledge how the circuit has been developed.


And it shows in poorly designed electronics, because "It worked in
spice, and the PC board looked nice", but is still a crappy design.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
Daniel Mandic said:
What you know Don is nice. But today design software can be used by
anyone, without knowledge how the circuit has been developed.

What Don - or anyone else - knows is more than "nice." There's
a big problem with relying solely on "design software" to do your
designs, and that's the fact that all such software must, by necessity,
have built in limitations and incorrect assumptions (at least weak
places in whatever models the software is using, corner cases
where the model no longer does all that great a job of reflecting
the real world. If you don't understand the components, the
fundamentals of the technology you're dealing with (and generally
well enough such that you COULD, if you had do, do the design
without relying on the software), then you won't know where these
potential traps lie, and you'll have nothing to do but scratch your
head when one of them causes your design to fail in the real world.

Even PCB layout software has such problems - you'd think that
something like that would be just a matter of making some code
smart enough to find a path from point A to point B. But does that
code know when sharp corners in that path should be avoided, and
when they're OK? Does it understand noise and crosstalk well
enough to make the appropriate choices in the layout to minimize
those - and is it smart enough to know when it doesn't need to?
Just a few examples out of many...

Bob M.
 
D

Don Bowey

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Don!



Hmmm, I understand. It's still developing for me, except your 2H and
the pad, and sometimes a calculator.

Designs varied in times. I like the old, with curves (obviuosly
hand-routed).


A 8086 I would place somewhere at the plain 68000. Much better for PCB
designing than the C64, due to hi-res Gfx.



What you know Don is nice. But today design software can be used by
anyone, without knowledge how the circuit has been developed.


Very true, but I wonder if they enjoy the work and if they can see the art
in something they design and if they have any "feel" about their components,
what the components really do, and how they do it. Can they "see" what is
happening when they look at a schematic?

I know there are still designers who only use Spice or somesuch to second
guess their work.

Don
 
B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
I know there are still designers who only use Spice or somesuch to second
guess their work.

Yeah, I don't think things have changed all that much from when my
dad (a machinist) was first showing me the ins and outs of basic
auto mechanics and such. You can use your tools, or your tools
can use you - it's your choice.

Bob M.
 
D

Daniel Mandic

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael said:
And it shows in poorly designed electronics, because "It worked in
spice, and the PC board looked nice", but is still a crappy design.


Hi Michael A. Terrell!



Yes. (I think I've read a bit about, at 'Analog Devices Inc.', where to
place parts, or agglomeration of parts, for more fidelity/quality in
real working condition.)

However, I just meant the tool... (Computers etc.)



Best regards,

Daniel Mandic
 
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