cold enough

K

Keith Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Keith Williams <[email protected]>


It can't. The lungs absorb O2 by chemically combining it with
haemoglobin. Nitrogen doesn't combine with it. Carbon monoxide is
especially dangerous because it does combine with haemoglobin.

I didn't mean N2 blood concentration, rather pure N2 in the room.
Halon fire extinguishers have the same problem.
That's caused simply by low air pressure, like in the recent Greek plane
crash. If you don't notice the signs soon enough, you black out.

Not low pressure. Low oxygen. A pure oxygen environment at .25ATM
is safe (oxygen masks don't increase pressure).
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't intend to conduct any experiments, but there seem to be an
inconsistency. If anoxia is imperceptible, and results in sudden
fainting, then entering a pool of dense CO2 in the bottom of a closed
space will result in sudden fainting, and this is what I understand
happens. But nitrogen doesn't pool, so unless almost all the oxygen has
gone (absorbed by rusting metal?), you DO realise that breathing isn't
working and can retire quickly.


If you enter an area of highish CO2 concentration, you feel stifled;
just hold your breath for 30 seconds to simulate the sensation. At
100% CO2, inhalation will tingle and your eyes will sting... carbonic
acid. CO2 warns of its presence. But inert gasses like nitrogen or
helium or whatever produce no sensation, just unconsciousness then
death.

John
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I always thought that this would be a way to clean sewers of rat
populations, rather than poisons. Just flood the sewers with N2.

Nah. There isn't enough N2 to do that. The atmosphere is already
70% N2, and at ordinary temperatures it would float.

Now, if you had a tank truck or so full of SF6...

Good Luck!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
IIRC CO2 is toxic because it raises the blood pH (carbonic acid).
SO in a forced low concentration (20% or so) CO2 might be worse.
OTOH, a room full of N2 would be worse than a room full of CO2. As
you point out, the body regulates oxygen intake by monitoring the
CO2 in the blood (pH). If N2 replaced the O2 the body wouldn't
react by demanding more oxygen, causing the brain to be starved of
oxygen. The subject would go into hypoxia and not even know it
(Payne Stewart). OTOH, if the CO2 concentration got too high one
naturally seeks more oxygen (lower blood pH). In this case panic
is better than bliss.

Have any of you ever heard of "altitude sickness"?

Thanks,
Rich
 
M

martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nah. There isn't enough N2 to do that. The atmosphere is already
70% N2, and at ordinary temperatures it would float.

Now, if you had a tank truck or so full of SF6...

Good Luck!
Rich
Ah well, just an Idea!

Beautiful sunset here, sort just made the day,


martin
 
P

Pat Ford

Jan 1, 1970
0
Keith Williams said:
I didn't mean N2 blood concentration, rather pure N2 in the room.
Halon fire extinguishers have the same problem.


Not low pressure. Low oxygen. A pure oxygen environment at .25ATM
is safe (oxygen masks don't increase pressure).

"Low partial pressure of oxygen" should replace "Low oxygen".
Pat
 
J

John Perry

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
...If anoxia is imperceptible, and results in sudden
fainting, then entering a pool of dense CO2 in the bottom of a closed
space will result in sudden fainting, and this is what I understand
happens. But nitrogen doesn't pool, so unless almost all the oxygen has
gone (absorbed by rusting metal?), you DO realise that breathing isn't
working and can retire quickly.

Regarding CO2, true up to a point. Actually, it takes quite a few
seconds for your body to deplete the blood's supply of oxygen. While
that's happening, you're very aware of the CO2. But how often do people
use concentrated CO2? CO2-related deaths are almost always from
breathing the air in a closed space until the O2 is depleted, and then
the death is due to anoxia, not CO2. As I said before, small amounts of
CO2 are agonizing (put a plastic bag over your head for a couple of
minutes to verify :). You die miserably in CO2, but only if you are
prevented physically from escaping.

Many, many entities have to use huge quantities of liquid N2, liquid He,
and such. When the gases escape uncontrolled into an enclosed space
quickly enough to displace O2, they are _deadly_, simply because their
effects are imperceptible. You die in these gases because you don't
realize you have no oxygen, and have no compulsion to escape.

Deaths have occurred in N2-flooded rooms with doors open, simply because
the victims didn't know they needed to get out. I haven't heard of that
happening with CO2.

jp
 
R

Rich, Under the Affluence

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Woodgate wrote:

Regarding CO2, true up to a point. Actually, it takes quite a few
seconds for your body to deplete the blood's supply of oxygen. While
that's happening, you're very aware of the CO2. But how often do people
use concentrated CO2? ...

While sampling sparkling wines? ;-D

Cheers!
Rich
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Deefoo said:
Most silicon devices will stop working (reliably) at -40 degrees Celsius or
below, many wont even go that far. Storage temperatures should often not be
lower than -65 degrees Celsius. So yes, temperature is an issue.

This may be true but I've found that most parts work below -40F without
trouble.

For that matter, I can't remember the last failure I've seen in -35C
environmental testing.
 
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