Fluorescent lights interfere with Infra-Red devices even when switchedoff!?!?!?

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Here's one for the electrical/electronics gurus.

Our new Wayne-Dalton iDrive garage door opener operates its associated
light fitting via an IR beam: the opener proper installs right above the
door, while the light fitting can be mounted to any convenient outlet
within "view" of the opener.

The light operated correctly when it was first installed, but then would
sometimes switch on but not be able to be switched off except by killing
the power to that circuit -- and even then the light would sometimes
switch on and stay on as soon as power was restored.

I called Wayne-Dalton Customer Service. The rep. asked whether we had
fluorescent lights in the garage. I replied that we did but that the
problem existed even when the fluorescents (CF) were turned off. The
rep. then said, "We have found that fluorescent lights can interfere
with infra-red sensors even when the lights are turned off." I told her
I couldn't see how that could be, but there was no point in arguing,
because she was only reciting her official spiel.

They are going to send a new light unit and a new motor-control board
(mine is an older revision, it appears), but . . .

Please tell me that there's no way a switched-off fluorescent can
interfere with IR circuits.

Perce

 

[Wes Stewart]

Here's one for the electrical/electronics gurus.

Our new Wayne-Dalton iDrive garage door opener operates its associated
light fitting via an IR beam: the opener proper installs right above the
door, while the light fitting can be mounted to any convenient outlet
within "view" of the opener.

The light operated correctly when it was first installed, but then would
sometimes switch on but not be able to be switched off except by killing
the power to that circuit -- and even then the light would sometimes
switch on and stay on as soon as power was restored.

I called Wayne-Dalton Customer Service. The rep. asked whether we had
fluorescent lights in the garage. I replied that we did but that the
problem existed even when the fluorescents (CF) were turned off. The
rep. then said, "We have found that fluorescent lights can interfere
with infra-red sensors even when the lights are turned off." I told her
I couldn't see how that could be, but there was no point in arguing,
because she was only reciting her official spiel.

They are going to send a new light unit and a new motor-control board
(mine is an older revision, it appears), but . . .

Please tell me that there's no way a switched-off fluorescent can
interfere with IR circuits.

Okay, there's no way a switched off flourescent can interfere with
anything. Switched on of course is a whole nuther ball game,
particularly if the fixture uses an electronic ballast.

But in this brave new world where every doodad manufactured includes a
microprocessor, a switch-mode power supply and a wireless link, the
other possibilities are endless.

Someday everything will just come to a dead stop because the
electromagnetic spectrum will be nothing but hash.

 

[SQLit]

Here's one for the electrical/electronics gurus.

Our new Wayne-Dalton iDrive garage door opener operates its associated
light fitting via an IR beam: the opener proper installs right above the
door, while the light fitting can be mounted to any convenient outlet
within "view" of the opener.

The light operated correctly when it was first installed, but then would
sometimes switch on but not be able to be switched off except by killing
the power to that circuit -- and even then the light would sometimes
switch on and stay on as soon as power was restored.

I called Wayne-Dalton Customer Service. The rep. asked whether we had
fluorescent lights in the garage. I replied that we did but that the
problem existed even when the fluorescents (CF) were turned off. The
rep. then said, "We have found that fluorescent lights can interfere
with infra-red sensors even when the lights are turned off." I told her
I couldn't see how that could be, but there was no point in arguing,
because she was only reciting her official spiel.

They are going to send a new light unit and a new motor-control board
(mine is an older revision, it appears), but . . .

Please tell me that there's no way a switched-off fluorescent can
interfere with IR circuits.

Perce

a complete WAG........

Change the CF's to incandescent and see if the problem goes away. If it does
then change brands of CF's

Like I said WAG...

 

[Charles Perry]

Aren't garage door openers RF in IR? What good would a line of sight
device do when your on the other side of the door?

Read the original post carefully. The IR is used to communicate between the
opener (mounted over the door instead of in the middle of the room) and the
light (mounted somewhere in the room).

Charles Perry P.E.

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Our new Wayne-Dalton iDrive garage door opener operates its associated
light fitting via an IR beam: the opener proper installs right above the
door, while the light fitting can be mounted to any convenient outlet
within "view" of the opener.

The light operated correctly when it was first installed, but then would
sometimes switch on but not be able to be switched off except by killing
the power to that circuit -- and even then the light would sometimes
switch on and stay on as soon as power was restored.

I called Wayne-Dalton Customer Service. . . .

They are going to send a new light unit and a new motor-control board
(mine is an older revision, it appears), but . . .

I bought the opener in question at Menards because they had a "10% off
Everything" sale. It has a Date of Manufacture code of 0903 (presumably
Sept. 03). Lowes has what seems to be a later revision with better
instructions and a different wall-mounting control having at least one
additional feature, a "vacation lock."

Lowes (and perhaps HD as well) turn their stock over more frequently and
may have more up-to-date products, it would appear. And Menards is a
sizeable chain; what are your chances of getting the new and improved
versions at "Joe's Hardware?"

Perce

 

[CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert]

Here's one for the electrical/electronics gurus.

Our new Wayne-Dalton iDrive garage door opener operates its associated
light fitting via an IR beam: the opener proper installs right above the
door, while the light fitting can be mounted to any convenient outlet
within "view" of the opener.

The light operated correctly when it was first installed, but then would
sometimes switch on but not be able to be switched off except by killing
the power to that circuit -- and even then the light would sometimes
switch on and stay on as soon as power was restored.

I called Wayne-Dalton Customer Service. The rep. asked whether we had
fluorescent lights in the garage. I replied that we did but that the
problem existed even when the fluorescents (CF) were turned off. The
rep. then said, "We have found that fluorescent lights can interfere
with infra-red sensors even when the lights are turned off." I told her
I couldn't see how that could be, but there was no point in arguing,
because she was only reciting her official spiel.

They are going to send a new light unit and a new motor-control board
(mine is an older revision, it appears), but . . .

Please tell me that there's no way a switched-off fluorescent can
interfere with IR circuits.

Perce

For my senior project I designed a car that could drive around
obstacles. It had infrared sensors. It also had a electronic compass
mounted to its roof for directional help. It worked beautifully. That
is until I presented it in class where they had flourescent lighting...

The thing banged around aimlessly, lol. And the motors were scrambling
the compass which I didnt notice since the sensors were working. It was
all good in theory, but in practice was another thing.

Any idiot, self included, should test their design at the intended
target location. I had no experience so it was excuseable. That garage
door opener using IR is inexcuseable. I guess thats why it was in the
grab bin.

P.S. My car worked better with the classroom lights off.

--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door() into
the sheepfold{}, but climbeth up some other *way, the same is a thief
and a robber."

GnuPG Key Fingerprint:
82A6 8893 C2A1 F64E A9AD 19AE 55B2 4CD7 80D2 0A2D

For a free Java interface to Freechess.org see
http://www.rigidsoftware.com/Chess/chess.html

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

For my senior project I designed a car that could drive around
obstacles. It had infrared sensors. It also had a electronic compass
mounted to its roof for directional help. It worked beautifully. That
is until I presented it in class where they had flourescent lighting...

The thing banged around aimlessly, lol. And the motors were scrambling
the compass which I didnt notice since the sensors were working. It was
all good in theory, but in practice was another thing.

Any idiot, self included, should test their design at the intended
target location. I had no experience so it was excuseable. That garage
door opener using IR is inexcuseable. I guess thats why it was in the
grab bin.

No, it wasn't in the grab bin: it was on the shelf with all the others
at full price (less the "10% off everything -- the same as our
employees" discount). The later-revision ones at Lowes still have IR
control for the light; perhaps it's an improved version -- and they're
supposed to be sending me a new light unit and motor-control board.

Anyway the problem with the original one is more a range thing: the only
reliable switching occurs with the light unit (plugged into an extension
cord for testing purposes, as an earlier customer support rep. had
suggested) just 3 or 4 feet from the opener -- whether the fluorescent
lights were on or off. Beyond that distance there were positions in
which it would turn on but not off again and positions in which it would
turn off but not on again.

Even if the thing is susceptible to interference from fluoro. lights
that are switched on, if one is opening the garage door when arriving
home, the fluoro. lights probably aren't going to be on to interfere
with the IR control, so the garage-door light should still go on -- but
if one then switches on the fluoro. lights before the garage-door light
goes off there could be interference.

When one is leaving the house and closing the garge door, one is
presumably not leaving the garage lights on to interfere with the IR
switching.

Note that I am assuming that the claim that even switched-off fluoro.
lights can intefere with IR switching is a bunch of baloney.

Perce

 

[nospambob]

When my wife drives out of the garage I'm presumably working on a wood
project so the fluoro lights are on.

 

[P.R.Brady]

Here's one for the electrical/electronics gurus.

Our new Wayne-Dalton iDrive garage door opener operates its associated
light fitting via an IR beam: the opener proper installs right above the
door, while the light fitting can be mounted to any convenient outlet
within "view" of the opener.

The light operated correctly when it was first installed, but then would
sometimes switch on but not be able to be switched off except by killing
the power to that circuit -- and even then the light would sometimes
switch on and stay on as soon as power was restored.

I called Wayne-Dalton Customer Service. The rep. asked whether we had
fluorescent lights in the garage. I replied that we did but that the
problem existed even when the fluorescents (CF) were turned off. The
rep. then said, "We have found that fluorescent lights can interfere
with infra-red sensors even when the lights are turned off." I told her
I couldn't see how that could be, but there was no point in arguing,
because she was only reciting her official spiel.

They are going to send a new light unit and a new motor-control board
(mine is an older revision, it appears), but . . .

Please tell me that there's no way a switched-off fluorescent can
interfere with IR circuits.

Perce

Perce,
I'm not sure I understand this phrase:

" operates its associated light fitting via an IR beam:"

I may be wandering down a byeway but are you saying that
- when you open the door, a light should turn on automatically?
- the 'switch' for this came with the door opening kit?
- the switch is controlled by infra-red from the main unit?
- That the light is a flourescent?

So the question might be whether the flourescent light is a suitable
load for this electronic switch, and not whether it interferes with an
IR beam?

Phil

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

I'm not sure I understand this phrase:

" operates its associated light fitting via an IR beam:"

I may be wandering down a byeway but are you saying that
- when you open the door, a light should turn on automatically?
- the 'switch' for this came with the door opening kit?
- the switch is controlled by infra-red from the main unit?
- That the light is a flourescent?

So the question might be whether the flourescent light is a suitable
load for this electronic switch, and not whether it interferes with an
IR beam?

When the door is operated, the light should come on, remain on for 5
min., then switch off again. The wall-mounted *wireless* control that
came with the whole set also has a separate button that is supposed to
operate the light, toggling it on and off -- but, again, the light is
controlled via the IR link from the opener proper: Wireless switch sends
RF signal to opener, which in turn sends IR signal to light fitting. So
the light fitting needs only a convenient outlet -- no control wires.
BTW, the IR sensor on the light fitting can be aimed fairly readily at
the opener proper.

I have used only a regular incandescent bulb in the opener-associated
light fitting: it will normally be on for only a few minutes at a time,
so the expense of a CF bulb would take years to recover. The fluorescent
lights in question are the CF ones in the original ceiling light sockets
-- but whether they are on or off makes no difference.

Perce

 

[Chris Lewis]

I have used only a regular incandescent bulb in the opener-associated
light fitting: it will normally be on for only a few minutes at a time,
so the expense of a CF bulb would take years to recover. The fluorescent
lights in question are the CF ones in the original ceiling light sockets
-- but whether they are on or off makes no difference.

Let me get this right:

You have CF lamps, unconnected with the garage door unit, that appear
to cause problems with the garage door unit, and the problem will "initiate"
EVEN IF the CFs are off?

I suppose it's very marginally possible that their assessment is correct,
but it shouldn't be that sensitive.

A couple things you could try to rule in/rule out: try putting an optical
barrier between the CFs and the GDO, or block off the IR sensor so that
it only can "see" the directions where the actuators are. Check to make
sure that the CF switching actually switches off the hot, not the neutral.
Pull the CFs from their sockets and see if the problem persists.

If it were a classic tube fluorescent, the first thing I'd do is make
sure the fixture case was solidly grounded and that it was only the hot
being switched.

 

[John Savage]

Note that I am assuming that the claim that even switched-off fluoro.
lights can intefere with IR switching is a bunch of baloney.

Probably in your case, but not always. I live in a block of apartments.
The building's stairwell and garage area lights are on a timeswitch--an
old fashioned mechanical relay arrangement that goes THUMP when it
switches on.

One cloudy afternoon as I felt my way down the stairwell in the half
gloom rather than switching on a dozen lights just to go a few flights,
out of the corner of my eye I imagined I caught a brief flash of light
from a CF fitting I was passing under. Intrigued, I waited, and waited,
and discovered to my amazement that every 4 or 5 minutes this globe would
give a momentary low-intensity (to my eye) flash of light! It was just an
ordinary CF globe that I'd installed.

I have not been able to come up with a satisfactory explanation for this.
In case there was a leakage current, I made sure after that to always have
at least one globe an ordinary incandescent.

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Here's one for the electrical/electronics gurus.

Our new Wayne-Dalton iDrive garage door opener operates its associated
light fitting via an IR beam: the opener proper installs right above the
door, while the light fitting can be mounted to any convenient outlet
within "view" of the opener.

The light operated correctly when it was first installed, but then would
sometimes switch on but not be able to be switched off except by killing
the power to that circuit -- and even then the light would sometimes
switch on and stay on as soon as power was restored.

I called Wayne-Dalton Customer Service. The rep. asked whether we had
fluorescent lights in the garage. I replied that we did but that the
problem existed even when the fluorescents (CF) were turned off. The
rep. then said, "We have found that fluorescent lights can interfere
with infra-red sensors even when the lights are turned off." I told her
I couldn't see how that could be, but there was no point in arguing,
because she was only reciting her official spiel.

They are going to send a new light unit and a new motor-control board
(mine is an older revision, it appears), but . . .

Please tell me that there's no way a switched-off fluorescent can
interfere with IR circuits.

And I just noticed that the Revision Date on the manual is 10/06/04,
whereas the DOM code on the unit is 0903. How on earth did W-D have this
thing sitting around for a year before they boxed it up to ship out?

I've still heard nothing from W-D about my replacement parts, but I've
emailed them and told them I hope to get a prompt response.

Perce

 

[Don Klipstein]

Probably in your case, but not always. I live in a block of apartments.
The building's stairwell and garage area lights are on a timeswitch--an
old fashioned mechanical relay arrangement that goes THUMP when it
switches on.

One cloudy afternoon as I felt my way down the stairwell in the half
gloom rather than switching on a dozen lights just to go a few flights,
out of the corner of my eye I imagined I caught a brief flash of light
from a CF fitting I was passing under. Intrigued, I waited, and waited,
and discovered to my amazement that every 4 or 5 minutes this globe would
give a momentary low-intensity (to my eye) flash of light! It was just an
ordinary CF globe that I'd installed.

I have not been able to come up with a satisfactory explanation for this.
In case there was a leakage current, I made sure after that to always have
at least one globe an ordinary incandescent.

I have found some CFs to flash from leakage current. Ones with glow
switch starters (and magnetic ballasts) may have the starters very dimly
glow or flicker a purplish color.

I saw this mainly when I tried switching a CF with the Radio Shack
"Plug-N-Power" switching system. The receivers intentionally leak some
current to detect whether a load is in place. I suspect CFs could even
have extra wear from dimly glowing or flashing when "off" with the
"Plug-N-Power" system, since their filaments will not be at the proper
operating temperature. Starters may not like to be glowing all the time.

However, I do not expect the much lower leakage currents found elsewhere
to cause much wear to fluorescents.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

And I just noticed that the Revision Date on the manual is 10/06/04,
whereas the DOM code on the unit is 0903. How on earth did W-D have this
thing sitting around for a year before they boxed it up to ship out?

I've still heard nothing from W-D about my replacement parts, but I've
emailed them and told them I hope to get a prompt response.

The replacement light unit and motor control board arrived today, but I
haven't had a chance to install the board yet. It looks as though
they've changed from IR control to RF control for the light: a loop on
the circuit board where the IR diode was on the old one.

Still no replacement wall control; the newer ones have a "vacation lock"
function, which I think could be very useful.

Perce

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

There is no way a fluorescent lamp in any state can affect a
properly designed IR comm link.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think this might be the key.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Here's one for the electrical/electronics gurus.

Our new Wayne-Dalton iDrive garage door opener operates its associated
light fitting via an IR beam: the opener proper installs right above the
door, while the light fitting can be mounted to any convenient outlet
within "view" of the opener.

The light operated correctly when it was first installed, but then would
sometimes switch on but not be able to be switched off except by killing
the power to that circuit -- and even then the light would sometimes
switch on and stay on as soon as power was restored.

I called Wayne-Dalton Customer Service. The rep. asked whether we had
fluorescent lights in the garage. I replied that we did but that the
problem existed even when the fluorescents (CF) were turned off. The
rep. then said, "We have found that fluorescent lights can interfere
with infra-red sensors even when the lights are turned off." I told her
I couldn't see how that could be, but there was no point in arguing,
because she was only reciting her official spiel.

Do you have a CFL installed in the garage door light fitting?

Its very possible that the (electronic) ballast presents a load that the
lamp control circuit (probably a solid state control like a Triac) can't
handle.

They are going to send a new light unit and a new motor-control board
(mine is an older revision, it appears), but . . .

Please tell me that there's no way a switched-off fluorescent can
interfere with IR circuits.

Its not very likely that the interference is with the IR link but with
the lamp control.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

When the door is operated, the light should come on, remain on for 5
min., then switch off again. The wall-mounted *wireless* control that
came with the whole set also has a separate button that is supposed to
operate the light, toggling it on and off -- but, again, the light is
controlled via the IR link from the opener proper: Wireless switch sends
RF signal to opener, which in turn sends IR signal to light fitting. So
the light fitting needs only a convenient outlet -- no control wires.
BTW, the IR sensor on the light fitting can be aimed fairly readily at
the opener proper.

I have used only a regular incandescent bulb in the opener-associated
light fitting: it will normally be on for only a few minutes at a time,
so the expense of a CF bulb would take years to recover. The fluorescent
lights in question are the CF ones in the original ceiling light sockets
-- but whether they are on or off makes no difference.

Does the system operate correctly if you remove the CFLs completely?

 

[TKM]

Does the system operate correctly if you remove the CFLs completely?

There is certainly no way a fluorescent lamp which is switched off can
interfere with any type of control.

However, operating fluorescent lamps can interfere with IR controls. It
doesn't seem to be a widespread problem, but I've heard about situations
where IR controls used for TV and other A/V systems don't work in rooms with
fluorescent lighting. The reason is the frequency of the IR signal. If it
is close to or a multiple of the frequency that the ballast sends to the
lamp, then the lighting signal will swamp the IR receptor.

TKM

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Does the system operate correctly if you remove the CFLs completely?

I didn't try that. I have now received and installed the free
replacement light unit and motor-control board, and they work fine --
but the light unit is now controlled via an RF link instead of via the
earlier version's IR link. So it's quite possible that W-D had enough
problems with fluorescents in garages (surely a rather common situation)
interfering with their IR-signalling system (when the fluoro. lights
were ON) that they felt obligated to scrap the IR in favor of RF.

Perce