IC's to measure barometric pressure

T

Tim Wescott

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
Are there any?
Motorola made absolute pressure sensors, probably went to Freescale.
Other companies undoubtedly do, too. They probably aren't accurate
enough for a barometer, but who knows?

Google on "MEMS" and "pressure sensor" and you should turn something up.
 
N

Nicholas O. Lindan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tim Wescott said:
Motorola made absolute pressure sensors, probably went to Freescale.
Other companies undoubtedly do, too. They probably aren't accurate
enough for a barometer, but who knows?

They can be linearized in software. The problem is temperature
compensation: they often make better thermometers than barometers.

TC'd units are available (and the only way to go for making a barometer),
if the environment is household indoors I am sure one would work fine.
 
R

Roger Hamlett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Marcel said:
Are there any?
Do a search on the MPX2100.
This was the original Motorola sensor family (now made by Freescale), and
are quite good _provided they are fed with a accurate reference, and high
quality op-amps are used for the amplifier_. These units are largely
temperature compensated (a big advantage). Honeywell do a more accurate
sensor, but the price goes up proportionately. The full scale, still
changes by +/-1% with temperature, and if you want to get the best
accuracy, tweaking for this is worthwhile.

Best Wishes
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Are there any?

Interesting reading the other responses. Another question is to what precision,
I suppose. I've built my own with the ability to detect changes in altitude of
50cm out of an empty spray can, some glass tubing, two LEDs, some nichrome wire,
a tiny circuit and power supply, and some DOT brake fluid. Cheap and sensitive,
but it won't work upside down!

Jon
 
S

Steve

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spehro said:
Here's one that's exceptionally easy to use (built-in 14-bit ADC and
serial synchronous or asynch comms):

http://www.allsensors.com/datasheets/app_specific/14bit_dig_baro_ind.pdf

It's available at Digikey (not cheap, though).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Interesting part. May be in the price range for an application of mine.
Odd data sheet that doesn't seem to indicate the All Sensors' part #!??
Mentions "compatible with their GA142 series," but that's not _the_ part.

Thanks to Digi-Key's search...

DigiKey # BARO-A-4VPRIMEREF-ND
All Sensors # BARO-A-4V-PRIME-REF, per Digi-Key.

$104, not in stock, or perhaps they just soldout...

Thanks, Steve
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Interesting part. May be in the price range for an application of mine.
Odd data sheet that doesn't seem to indicate the All Sensors' part #!??
Mentions "compatible with their GA142 series," but that's not _the_ part.

Thanks to Digi-Key's search...

DigiKey # BARO-A-4VPRIMEREF-ND
All Sensors # BARO-A-4V-PRIME-REF, per Digi-Key.

$104, not in stock, or perhaps they just soldout...

Thanks, Steve

442-1097-ND BARO-DO $140.00 3 in stock
442-1098-ND BARO-DO-MIL $296.00 3 in stock




Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
Y

YD

Jan 1, 1970
0
Interesting reading the other responses. Another question is to what precision,
I suppose. I've built my own with the ability to detect changes in altitude of
50cm out of an empty spray can, some glass tubing, two LEDs, some nichrome wire,
a tiny circuit and power supply, and some DOT brake fluid. Cheap and sensitive,
but it won't work upside down!

Jon

I'd love to see that one. Is there a description and diagram on-line
somewhere?

- YD.
 
C

crzndog

Jan 1, 1970
0
Very interesting post. I just received a barometric pressure sensor for my
hand-held Pilot Tranceiver today. The tranceiver also has a thermal
measurement capability so that it can do Density-Altitude measurments. It
is not incredibly accurate (obviously useless in a pressurized cabin) but
could be useful on private aircraft if the avionics goes out.

The things that need to be done to get the accuracy (according to the
manual) are:

1) Calibrate Pressure Sensor to a scientifically callibrated Pressure
sensor. This is an offset addition/subtraction.
2) Set the reference pressure to the current pressure and check the
altitude (using the standard model of temperature and pressure). Compare to
a calibrated system!
3) Check the thermometer and calibrate it to a scientific thermometer! (by
adding an offset).
4) Now use for pressure density measurements to get your true altitude.

OK, lot's of unknowns but at least if you were traveling somewhere and your
instrumetation and avionics went out you'd have something that would get you
within 400-500ft of reality (which should be enough for a landing).

Hasn't anyone managed to make am MEMS device that can measure pressure and
temperature in one device ? Surely one could use the flexing of a beam and
use some form of strain-gauge to actually measure pressure (it would have to
be sealed on once side with a known pressure since you are measuring a
differential pressure). The temperature part is easy. BJT/Diode using the
Diode thermal characteristics (kt/q ?).
 
C

crzndog

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thinking aloud here (please don't flame me for this).

If one had mercury in a vessel, wouldn't the resistance change with pressure
(since the molecules are being compressed together under higher pressure).
If so, could you measure that difference to provide an accurate mmHG
reading.

Just a thought.

Also, I'm sure you could use a laser reflected also to get very accurate
measurements (especially if a mirror was floated on the surface of the
mercury).

I don't know how the industial grade Barometric sensors work so please
forgive me if I've stated the obvious.
 
D

Dan Major

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thinking aloud here (please don't flame me for this).

If one had mercury in a vessel, wouldn't the resistance change with
pressure (since the molecules are being compressed together under
higher pressure). If so, could you measure that difference to provide
an accurate mmHG reading.

Just a thought.

And an interesting idea. Except that fluids in general, and mercury (a
liquid metal) are *mostly* incompressible. (OK, they can be compressed, as
Howard Hughs found out, but only under *extreme* pressure - not
barometric.)
Also, I'm sure you could use a laser reflected also to get very
accurate measurements (especially if a mirror was floated on the
surface of the mercury).

Another neat idea. Depending upon the diameter of the container the
mercury was in, and the purity, you might be able to bounce the laser off
the top of the mercury directly.

What might work better would be to make either a simple sealed vertical
tube manometer, or a U-tube manometer with one sealed end, and pass a
nichrome wire through the end of the tube, down into the mercury. As the
pressure changes, the mercury would rise and fall in the tube. This
changes the length of nichrome wire above the mercury. Since the
resistance of the wire would be proportional to the length above the
mewcury, the resistance is proportional to the pressure. Do a google
search on McLeod Gauge - used to measure vacuum.

I don't know how the industial grade Barometric sensors work so please
forgive me if I've stated the obvious.

Well, you are inventive. "Industrial" sensors can come in a variety of
mechanical designs, depending upon the range of pressures needed to be
measured, the type of signal needed, and the accuracy needed. I've seen
designs that were steel bellows where the end of the bellows formed a
capacitor. There is the bourdon-tube design - like a regular pressure
gauge, except that instead of the needle rotating on a dial face, it is the
wiper rotating around a potentiometer. Others used a sealed chamber with a
diaphram across one end. A strain gage of some sort is attached to the
diaphram. As pressure changes, the diaphram flexes, causing changes in the
strain gage. Strain gage could be replaced with a piezo-resistive element.
One of the most interesting gauges I've worked with was the Leybold-Heraeus
spinning ball viscometer. It was used as a reference to calibrate all the
other vacuum gauges. It suspended a small metal ball in a magnetic field.
The ball was spun up to an exact RPM than allowed to coast down to a lower,
set RPM. The rate at which the ball slowed down indicated the drag from
gas friction, and is proportional to the absolute pressure.
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'd love to see that one. Is there a description and diagram on-line
somewhere?

I believe it was an amateur scientist column in scientific american, years ago.
But the basic thrust is this: The glass tubing is bent into a U shape, with one
side of the U curving back downwards and hooking into the top of the spray can.
That entry into the can needs to be sealed well with something that doesn't
outgas or leak. Some cans already have a rubber insert you can use for the
purpose. There are some epoxies, as well. The other end of the U is left
upwards pointing and open. The U will be filled with DOT fluid (it has some
wonderful properties for this purpose, if you think about it.) You wrap the can
with the nichrome wire. This will be used to heat the can and expand the air
inside. The two LEDs are used, one for an emitter and the other for a detector.
You can use a real detector, instead, though. This pair is then placed on the
leg of the U furthest away from the can. The nichrome is controlled as an
"on/off" type of control (simple) -- when the DOT brake fluid rises of its own
accord above the point on the U tube where the emitter/detector pair are at, the
trapped gas is expanding and you need to cut the heating current to the
nichrome; when the DOT brake fluid drops below, then the heating current is
turned on until the trapped gas heats enough to compensate. I forgot to add in
the earlier post that a thermistor or other means of measuring the can's
temperature is needed. Anyway, the can temperature is then interpreted. Even
slight up/down motions can be 'observed' as a change in temperature with enough
precision to see that 50cm adjustment. It drifts (or mine did) a fair amount
and absolute calibration gets lost over periods of days. But for measurements
over periods of hours to look for relative changes, it was great!

Jon
 
Y

YD

Jan 1, 1970
0
I believe it was an amateur scientist column in scientific american, years ago.
But the basic thrust is this: The glass tubing is bent into a U shape, with one
side of the U curving back downwards and hooking into the top of the spray can.
That entry into the can needs to be sealed well with something that doesn't
outgas or leak. Some cans already have a rubber insert you can use for the
purpose. There are some epoxies, as well. The other end of the U is left
upwards pointing and open. The U will be filled with DOT fluid (it has some
wonderful properties for this purpose, if you think about it.) You wrap the can
with the nichrome wire. This will be used to heat the can and expand the air
inside. The two LEDs are used, one for an emitter and the other for a detector.
You can use a real detector, instead, though. This pair is then placed on the
leg of the U furthest away from the can. The nichrome is controlled as an
"on/off" type of control (simple) -- when the DOT brake fluid rises of its own
accord above the point on the U tube where the emitter/detector pair are at, the
trapped gas is expanding and you need to cut the heating current to the
nichrome; when the DOT brake fluid drops below, then the heating current is
turned on until the trapped gas heats enough to compensate. I forgot to add in
the earlier post that a thermistor or other means of measuring the can's
temperature is needed. Anyway, the can temperature is then interpreted. Even
slight up/down motions can be 'observed' as a change in temperature with enough
precision to see that 50cm adjustment. It drifts (or mine did) a fair amount
and absolute calibration gets lost over periods of days. But for measurements
over periods of hours to look for relative changes, it was great!

Jon

Thanks, I recall having seen a variant of this, using a glass bulb and
resistors for heating. The temperature was kept well above ambient
(some 50 or 60 C) and the heater current was read off. The control was
analog keeping the meniscus at the midpoint between LED and sensor.

I recall thinking that ambient temperature variations and drafts must
play hell on any kind of long term stability.

A pity about that Amateur Scientist column, it used to be quite good
up till the mid-80's when it took a nosedive, as did the magazine
itself.

- YD.
 
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