Isolation transformer and RCD for isolated power question

A

Alan Perry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Having had experience of ground loops and general interference
I wanted to design a system that was as isolated as possible, but
still safe. To start with the mains power feed I researched around
and I believe it boils down to this...

Is this How you use an Isolation Transformer and RCD to protect equipment
and break ground loops?

Primary | Secondary

--------------
L -------- | --------| |------------- L2
( | ( | |
)| ) | |
( | ( | |
)| ) | RCD 30mA |
( | ( | |
N -------- | ----+---| |------------- N2
| | | |
| ----| |------------- E2
E ---------- --------------

^
|
Isolation transformer

Also can charge build up be solved with a 1M resister between the
two earths?

Cheers

Alan
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
Alan said:
Having had experience of ground loops and general interference
I wanted to design a system that was as isolated as possible, but
still safe. To start with the mains power feed I researched around
and I believe it boils down to this...

Is this How you use an Isolation Transformer and RCD to protect equipment
and break ground loops?

Primary | Secondary

--------------
L -------- | --------| |------------- L2
( | ( | |
)| ) | |
( | ( | |
)| ) | RCD 30mA |
( | ( | |
N -------- | ----+---| |------------- N2
| | | |
| ----| |------------- E2
E ---------- --------------

^
|
Isolation transformer

Also can charge build up be solved with a 1M resister between the
two earths?

Cheers

Alan

Sorry Alan, but you use EITHER an RCD or an isolating transformer. As it
stands, your isolating transformer adds weight, cost and NO PROTECTION
WHATSOEVER to the user. Here is why:

An isolation transformer is used to minimise electric shock hazards in
MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral) power systems. With the MEN system,
distribution transformer secondary star-points (ie neutral connections)
are connected to "the body of the earth" at multiple points. There are
thus 2 ways of getting an electric shock:
1) hook yourself up across Phase & Neutral
2) hook youself between phase and the planet (eg wet concrete floor, or
muddy paddock etc).

Obviously the latter is the most common technique for electrocution, as
in general we are always in good contact with the earth. MEN is used to
ensure a low impedance to fault currents (which are correspondingly
high) thereby ensuring protective devices quickly trip. This is a good
thing; the downside is the increased risk of electrocution.

The use of an isolation transformer removes the connection between the
neutral conductor and earth. This removes #2 as a means for getting
zapped - now you must hook up to both phase and neutral, which takes
considerably more effort - but is achievable, if you try hard enough :)

Alas in your schematic the second "earth" terminal is of course not
connected to earth, but is actually the neutral conductor. In the case
of metallic equipment, you have now ensured that the case is securely
connected to neutral - ie you just achieved half of the necessary
connections for electrocution to occur. Its worth noting that an
isolation transformer has no "phase" and "neutral" outputs - they are
interchangeable (hey, its AC...). Iso trannys generally have a fuse in
each output lead.

An iso tranny with 1 outlet has NO CONNECTION to the earth pin at all.
An iso tranny with 2 or more outlets will have all of the earth pins
connected together, but going nowhere. The reason for this is as
follows: imagine two appliances, one having a phase-to-case fault, the
other with a neutral-to-case fault. If you plug the first one into a
dual-output iso tranny (with earth unconnected), the case now sits at
the phase conductor potential. The operator will not get a shock, and
the equipment will continue to operate. However if they plug the second
faulty device into the same iso tranny, one case is at phase potential,
the other at neutral potential. one hand on either appliance WILL KILL
YOU. OTOH if the two outlet earths are connected together, then as soon
as you plug in the 2nd appliance, one or both output fuses will rupture
(the first appliance means the phase conductor is at earth potential,
the 2nd shorts phase to neutral thru the earth terminal link).

an RCD is a controlled-electrocution device, and will trip an isolating
device very rapidly (< 300ms) when earth current (>= 30mA) is detected.
Of course this earth current must flow (for a little while). If faulty
equipment causes the earth leakage current, then the RCD will trip when
you plug in said equipment. If it is the operator getting a belt that
causes the earth leakage current, then the operator must get said belt
before the RCD will trip.

cheers
Terry
 
A

Alan Perry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Terry Given said:
Sorry Alan, but you use EITHER an RCD or an isolating transformer. As it
stands, your isolating transformer adds weight, cost and NO PROTECTION
WHATSOEVER to the user. Here is why:

who said I wanted to protect the user? oh yeah I did say safe.... :)
An isolation transformer is used to minimise electric shock hazards in
MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral) power systems. With the MEN system,
distribution transformer secondary star-points (ie neutral connections)
are connected to "the body of the earth" at multiple points. There are
thus 2 ways of getting an electric shock:
1) hook yourself up across Phase & Neutral
2) hook youself between phase and the planet (eg wet concrete floor, or
muddy paddock etc).

Obviously the latter is the most common technique for electrocution, as
in general we are always in good contact with the earth. MEN is used to
ensure a low impedance to fault currents (which are correspondingly
high) thereby ensuring protective devices quickly trip. This is a good
thing; the downside is the increased risk of electrocution.

The use of an isolation transformer removes the connection between the
neutral conductor and earth. This removes #2 as a means for getting
zapped - now you must hook up to both phase and neutral, which takes
considerably more effort - but is achievable, if you try hard enough :)

Alas in your schematic the second "earth" terminal is of course not
connected to earth, but is actually the neutral conductor. In the case
of metallic equipment, you have now ensured that the case is securely
connected to neutral - ie you just achieved half of the necessary
connections for electrocution to occur. Its worth noting that an
isolation transformer has no "phase" and "neutral" outputs - they are
interchangeable (hey, its AC...). Iso trannys generally have a fuse in
each output lead.

The earth-neutral connection did bother me, hence the post....
An iso tranny with 1 outlet has NO CONNECTION to the earth pin at all.
An iso tranny with 2 or more outlets will have all of the earth pins
connected together, but going nowhere. The reason for this is as
follows: imagine two appliances, one having a phase-to-case fault, the
other with a neutral-to-case fault. If you plug the first one into a
dual-output iso tranny (with earth unconnected), the case now sits at
the phase conductor potential. The operator will not get a shock, and
the equipment will continue to operate. However if they plug the second
faulty device into the same iso tranny, one case is at phase potential,
the other at neutral potential. one hand on either appliance WILL KILL
YOU. OTOH if the two outlet earths are connected together, then as soon
as you plug in the 2nd appliance, one or both output fuses will rupture
(the first appliance means the phase conductor is at earth potential,
the 2nd shorts phase to neutral thru the earth terminal link).

an RCD is a controlled-electrocution device, and will trip an isolating
device very rapidly (< 300ms) when earth current (>= 30mA) is detected.
Of course this earth current must flow (for a little while). If faulty
equipment causes the earth leakage current, then the RCD will trip when
you plug in said equipment. If it is the operator getting a belt that
causes the earth leakage current, then the operator must get said belt
before the RCD will trip.

cheers
Terry

So I must connect my earths together (on my isolated side), but not to
'neutral' (which I am instinctively more happy with)

If I include an RCD, this is another level of fault protection (in
addition to fuses in both output lines)

As I am expecting fault conditions to occur, any thing that helps
protect the equipment and user will be welcome (just as long as it's
not too expensive.... :) )


Thanks

Alan
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
Alan said:
who said I wanted to protect the user? oh yeah I did say safe.... :)




The earth-neutral connection did bother me, hence the post....

the flip side to my argument is of course for equipment with metal
cases, any phase-to-case internal fault will immediately blow the iso
tranny fuses when connected as drawn. If you leave the earth pin
unconnected (as in a conventional iso tranny) then a phase-to-case fault
means the case is at the phase potential. Because phase is floating wrt
earth, this does precisely nothing. OTOH if you touch this appliances
case with one hand, and the neutral conductor with the other - zap,
you're dead (at least you probably are with 230Vac :)
So I must connect my earths together (on my isolated side), but not to
'neutral' (which I am instinctively more happy with)

Bingo. And that connection is specifically for the two-faulty-appliance
case (pun intentional :). Most countries have electrical regulations
governing the use of iso trannies, which specifically forbids connecting
the "earth" E2 to N2. NZ certainly does - I just passed my electrical
registration B exam a couple of weeks ago, allowing me to service
3-phase 400V fixed-wired toasters. We specifically studied the regs
concerning iso tranny's

If I include an RCD, this is another level of fault protection (in
addition to fuses in both output lines)

only if you connect your "earth" E2 to neutral N2 a-la the diagram. if
E2 is unconnected, then the RCD will never trip.

so you see that putting in the RCD requires the E2-N2 connection, which
you are not supposed to do with an iso tranny. normally one uses either
an rcd or an iso tranny, not both.

As I am expecting fault conditions to occur, any thing that helps
protect the equipment and user will be welcome (just as long as it's
not too expensive.... :) )

what equipment are you actually trying to protect?
Thanks

Alan

Cheers
Terry
 
A

Alan Perry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Terry Given said:
what equipment are you actually trying to protect?

This is a test fixture for a low production volume chassis.

The fixture contains some basic power switching, some servo motors
and a controlling PC....

The chassis has some servo motion controllers and some simple
interfacing...

To make life interesting we are trying to use the lessons learnt from
other test fixtures ...

We know for instance that ground loops are a Bad thing...

Having seen NI4060 DMMs used in the past, which caused lots of
software problems when you tried measuring resistance with a ground
loop, we wanted to avoid more in the future should one have to be
fitted...

Various PCs and other bits of equipment from the late 1990's have died
in mystrious circumstances over the last few years, but the ancient
equipment from the 1980's just seems to carry on regardless......

Having finally got hold of the great wise engineer there will be one
common earth, a center tapped isolation transformer was thought to be
a good idea and the RCD up to 100mA could be fitted if there are
nuisance trips (but there is no history of this). All of which makes
sense and I would be happy to work on the equipment or indeed have
some body else work on the equipment...

You tend to get a lot more help if you've at least tried to find a
solution rather than just asking for the answer.... Sounds familiar...
:)

Having researched the issue I now see it's not a simple issue.

Thanks for your help.

Alan
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
Alan said:
This is a test fixture for a low production volume chassis.

The fixture contains some basic power switching, some servo motors
and a controlling PC....

The chassis has some servo motion controllers and some simple
interfacing...

To make life interesting we are trying to use the lessons learnt from
other test fixtures ...

We know for instance that ground loops are a Bad thing...

Having seen NI4060 DMMs used in the past, which caused lots of
software problems when you tried measuring resistance with a ground
loop, we wanted to avoid more in the future should one have to be
fitted...

Various PCs and other bits of equipment from the late 1990's have died
in mystrious circumstances over the last few years, but the ancient
equipment from the 1980's just seems to carry on regardless......

Having finally got hold of the great wise engineer there will be one
common earth, a center tapped isolation transformer was thought to be
a good idea and the RCD up to 100mA could be fitted if there are
nuisance trips (but there is no history of this). All of which makes
sense and I would be happy to work on the equipment or indeed have
some body else work on the equipment...

You tend to get a lot more help if you've at least tried to find a
solution rather than just asking for the answer.... Sounds familiar...
:)

Having researched the issue I now see it's not a simple issue.

few things are :}
Thanks for your help.

Alan

No worries.

My experience with ATE has been that pc-in-the-loop data acquisition is
a great way to create ground loops, thereby preventing reliable
operation. Isolate everything....

Cheers
Terry
 
A

Alan Perry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Terry Given said:
My experience with ATE has been that pc-in-the-loop data acquisition is
a great way to create ground loops, thereby preventing reliable
operation. Isolate everything....

I intend to .... now the question is - Is it more cost effective and
or accurate to use ....

isolating amps/buffers ($20 a channel) to PC measurement device or
ADC with opto isolated digital interface or
roll your own PWM circuit with opto isolated output (like a 1 bit ADC)
or
using a USB measurment device (Is it isolated from the PC, I guess not
seing as it's cheap solution.)

I shall be working through these options over the following weeks...

Regards


Alan
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
Alan said:
I intend to .... now the question is - Is it more cost effective and
or accurate to use ....

isolating amps/buffers ($20 a channel) to PC measurement device or
ADC with opto isolated digital interface or
roll your own PWM circuit with opto isolated output (like a 1 bit ADC)
or
using a USB measurment device (Is it isolated from the PC, I guess not
seing as it's cheap solution.)

I shall be working through these options over the following weeks...

Regards
Alan

Hi Alan,

it all depends.....as usual.

If you have a budget, dont bother with roll-your-own circuitry - there
are plenty of little blue boxes you can buy quite cheaply, that are
isolated, RS485. Be careful though - often they are very, very slow to
talk to - I have been caught that way, with taiwanese boxes, mostly
because they didnt work the way the manual said, so instead of asking
for a conversion on one channel, all they would do is scan thru all 8
channels. slowed things down considerably....

Agilent make some really nice dataloggers, with removable I/O cards. I
have had these used a fair bit - one datalogger can serve multiple
testers, if you dont need them all at once (ie just buy many I/o cards,
and plug them into the datalogger), and they take a wide variety of
inputs. more expensive, but shitloads faster. The real beauty is
calibration - send off the datalogger, pay the exorbitant bill, and it
comes back with a nice cal sticker.

I have thought about making a high-speed USB to isolated RS485 adapter,
then a whole bunch of really well isolated I/O modules (6kV isolation,
20kV/us dV/dt immunity etc). When I get some time.....


Cheers
Terry
 
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