Jamicon WL-R caps "not suitable for audio"

R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
:Why does the WES catalogue advise that Jamicon WL-R miniature low ESR
:capacitors are "not suitable for audio"?
:
:Here is the datasheet:
:http://www.wescomponents.com/datasheets/WLr.pdf
:
:- Franc Zabkar


Franc, I see nothing on the WES data sheet or the manufacturer's data sheet
http://www.jamicon.com.tw/WebApplication2/pdf/capacitor/WL.pdf which advises
"not suitable for audio". The WL is specifically designed as a 105C low
impedance type for use in small smps but that doesn't mean it can't be used in
audio applications.

Looking at any of the Jamicon data sheets here
http://www.jamicon.com.tw/cappicseach.aspx I can't see any which specifically
recommend suitability for non-suitability for audio use, not even in their
general purpose types - yet, we all know that they are used for audio apps.
 
B

Bob Parker

Jan 1, 1970
0
:Why does the WES catalogue advise that Jamicon WL-R miniature low ESR
:capacitors are "not suitable for audio"?
:
:Here is the datasheet:
:http://www.wescomponents.com/datasheets/WLr.pdf
:
:- Franc Zabkar


Franc, I see nothing on the WES data sheet or the manufacturer's data sheet
http://www.jamicon.com.tw/WebApplication2/pdf/capacitor/WL.pdf which advises
"not suitable for audio". The WL is specifically designed as a 105C low
impedance type for use in small smps but that doesn't mean it can't be used in
audio applications.

Looking at any of the Jamicon data sheets here
http://www.jamicon.com.tw/cappicseach.aspx I can't see any which specifically
recommend suitability for non-suitability for audio use, not even in their
general purpose types - yet, we all know that they are used for audio apps.


They're designed for circuits which put high frequency ripple
current through them, so audiophiles will instantly notice an irritating
'shrill' element in the sound if they're used for audio.

Bob


PS - I was being sarcastic.
 
R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
:On 6/02/2008 12:52 Ross Herbert wrote:
:> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 06:38:46 +1100, Franc Zabkar <[email protected]>
:> wrote:
:>
:> :Why does the WES catalogue advise that Jamicon WL-R miniature low ESR
:> :capacitors are "not suitable for audio"?
:> :
:> :Here is the datasheet:
:> :http://www.wescomponents.com/datasheets/WLr.pdf
:> :
:> :- Franc Zabkar
:>
:>
:> Franc, I see nothing on the WES data sheet or the manufacturer's data sheet
:> http://www.jamicon.com.tw/WebApplication2/pdf/capacitor/WL.pdf which advises
:> "not suitable for audio". The WL is specifically designed as a 105C low
:> impedance type for use in small smps but that doesn't mean it can't be used
in
:> audio applications.
:>
:> Looking at any of the Jamicon data sheets here
:> http://www.jamicon.com.tw/cappicseach.aspx I can't see any which specifically
:> recommend suitability for non-suitability for audio use, not even in their
:> general purpose types - yet, we all know that they are used for audio apps.
:
:
: They're designed for circuits which put high frequency ripple
:current through them, so audiophiles will instantly notice an irritating
:'shrill' element in the sound if they're used for audio.
:
:Bob
:
:
:pS - I was being sarcastic.
:
:
:

Bob, I know that you wouldn't believe such things would result from using the WL
in audio apps. However, it is just as well that you included your final remark
otherwise someone from the golden ear brigade might just believe it was true.
 
B

Bob Parker

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob, I know that you wouldn't believe such things would result from using the WL
in audio apps. However, it is just as well that you included your final remark
otherwise someone from the golden ear brigade might just believe it was true.


G'day Ross,
Yeah, I thought I better make it clear that I wasn't serious, just
in case someone believed it! :)

Cheers
Bob
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Maybe its because they aren't expensive enough ;)
Obtaining and processing the snake oil required is very labour (left
hand) intensive. :)

I notice that elsewhere WES suggest that low leakage caps (ELR and
EMRL) are the capacitors of choice for audio pre-amp stages. These
have a leakage current of 0.3uA whereas the WL-R caps specify 3uA.
However, the low impedance general purpose EXR caps with a leakage
current of 3-4uA are stated to be OK for audio. <shrug>

Of course over the page are "hifi" rated 10,000uF and 15,000uF caps,
whatever that means, but we won't mention those. :)

- Franc Zabkar
 
On Feb 5, 8:38 pm, Franc Zabkar
Why does the WES catalogue advise that Jamicon WL-R miniature low ESR
capacitors are "not suitable for audio"?

Well, for example in ceramic capacitors with dielectrics like Z5U that
is the same as Y5V, have the characteristic that the capacity is ONLY
and ONLY achieved under bias. That meant a 1uF ceramic capacitor is
only 100nF at 0.2V DC bias and ~1uF at 10V bias, etc. In audio
applications you use capacitors in various functions. In power supply
you don't care about such properties, because you always try to run at
full rated voltage of the supply. However if you were to use such
capacitor in oscillator or filters, you would get very large nonlinear
distortion. I personally tried some small, cheapest ceramic capacitors
(I think Z5U dielectric or similar) and I could tune oscillator
frequancy depending on capacitor bias voltage with one finger on
capacitor terminals and the other touching supply or ground. It was
fun.

Now back to your question. Electrolytics should not have much
nonlinearity at all. Maybe the double-layer capacitors before
activation, or multi-electrolyte type formulations could have more
exponential characteristic than is usual. But is is only a remote
possibility. Maybe the question was whether you want also to use it as
a bipolar non-biased capacitor. Soem 10 years ago I used electrolytic
capacitor in an application which required only alternating current
and of course the electrolytic capacitor - being only low current
UNIPOLAR type smoked the electrolyte out. That is what are BIPOLAR
electrolytic capacitor for. You ask WHAT is the difference? The main
is the electrodes, being of aluminium foil, one is oxidized and one
isn't. Bipolar capacitor has both electrodes oxidized (as far as I
remember, weak, weak memories :) ). Think about it briefly, would you
use an electrolytic capacitor with reversed polarity? Of course
not :). And that should be the most obvious matter on use of unipolar
electrolytic capacitors in audio. Oh, forgot to mention what happens.
Electrolytic capacitors have LIMITED lifetime. Wrong polarisation will
result in much faster electrode corrosion and will greatly shorten the
useful life. In audio path you want to use capacitors that will last
and not change their parameters over time. In switched power supplies
the capacitors have very short life, some will become useless in years
and develop gas pressure from decomposition and heat inside. reversing
polarity would much accelerate that.

If you want to use it under biased conditions of in a power supply,
you don't need to worry about capacitor being suitable for SMPS or
AUDIO, it only needs to be able deliver the current and not overheat
during that.
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Maybe the question was whether you want also to use it as
a bipolar non-biased capacitor.

WL-R caps are polarised. The only time I can imagine a "bias" problem
is when coupling the inputs and outputs of two items of audio
equipment, but that would affect all non-polarised electrolytic caps,
not just the subject ones.

- Franc Zabkar
 
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