LED fibre optic hack.

C

Clive Mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've just added a new page on my website covering the conversion of a
cheapo one pound fibre optic spray from battery operation to direct
mains operation with high output LEDs. It's at:-

http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/fibre.htm

or go to bigclive.com and follow the "things to make and do" link.

It's neat, safe (relatively), very low power and best of all, very
simple.
 
R

R.Lewis

Jan 1, 1970
0
ADVISE ANY UNWITTING (AND UNKNOWING) HOBBYIST' TO PUT A DISCHARGE RESISTOR
EITHER ACROSS THE CAP OR ACROSS LIVE TO NEUTRAL IN YOUR CIRCUIT BEFORE IT
KILLS SOMEONE.!!!!!
 
I

Ian Stirling

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
What with 20 Volts ?

No, with the input capacitor.
If disconnected at the wrong time, it'll be charged to about 300V.
It won't then discharge on its own.
If someone then touches the plug, a pulse of up to 3A will bite them.
For the faint of heart, this may be a bad idea.

There should also be a resistor between the zener and the LEDs, so that
the current is smoother, and there is less 50Hz flicker.
Picking the zener and the resistor so that they tend to regulate the
current at the right number is a good idea.

The cheap bright LEDs have terrible life even at nominal current.
Feeding them with pulsating current to the same brightness is a
bad idea, as is exceeding their ratings, or allowing them to get hot.

The 100/1000 (I'd use 1000) ohm resistor should be rated to handle the
surge voltage, and have an appropriate wattage.
Also, consider what happens when someone connects this to a dimmed outlet,
along with a spotlight or other load.
Not going to be pretty.

At the least, I'd include a thermal fuse, use an appropriate capacitor
(class Y?), due to what happens if the input cap shorts.

Don't forget the 470K 1W resistor across the input.
 
S

Steve

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian said:
No, with the input capacitor.
If disconnected at the wrong time, it'll be charged to about 300V.
It won't then discharge on its own.
If someone then touches the plug, a pulse of up to 3A will bite them.

Energy stored = 14millijoules.

Your skin resistance model for this peak current is 100 Ohms, where is
that from ? Its usually taken as 1000-10,000 Ohms, so the peak current
falls to 300mA, and the time constant is 300uSec, in your model its
30uSec. Even if you assume that this current flows for all of the
300uSec, these levels are not dangerous.

Steve
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian Stirling said:
No, with the input capacitor.
If disconnected at the wrong time, it'll be charged to about 300V.
It won't then discharge on its own.
If someone then touches the plug, a pulse of up to 3A will bite them.
For the faint of heart, this may be a bad idea.
If you read again you will see I do recommend a resistor across the
capacitor or mains input. It gives a small nip in it's present form,
but the discharge resistor is definitely the way to go. I'm surprised I
forgot to include it in the PCB design after having used a similar
circuit many times before.
There should also be a resistor between the zener and the LEDs, so that
the current is smoother, and there is less 50Hz flicker.
Picking the zener and the resistor so that they tend to regulate the
current at the right number is a good idea.

I used a series resistor in an earlier design, but when the circuit is
used without it there is absolutely no 100Hz flicker whatsoever (Even
when the light is "swiped" to see the strobing). The LEDs have a slight
voltage variation depending on their operating current, and it seems to
work despite being a bit naughty. It's easy enough to add, but the
whole concept of the design was a minimalist device. Maybe I'll add it
in to instil good design principles.
The cheap bright LEDs have terrible life even at nominal current.
Feeding them with pulsating current to the same brightness is a
bad idea, as is exceeding their ratings, or allowing them to get hot.
The cheap bright LEDs are indeed crap. The circuit passes a mean
current of 20mA through the LEDs which is within their designed
dissipation.
The 100/1000 (I'd use 1000) ohm resistor should be rated to handle the

A look back at earlier versions reveals that I used a 100 ohm resistor
in series with the LEDs in the first version but found it's function to
be virtually irrelevant. A look at two commercial devices that use this
technique reveals that one has no resistor and one has a 47 ohm
resistor.
surge voltage, and have an appropriate wattage.
Also, consider what happens when someone connects this to a dimmed outlet,
along with a spotlight or other load.
Not going to be pretty.
When run on a dimmer the brightness doesn't vary much once the point of
illumination is reached. I did test an earlier version in this manner
with the intent of destruction. Sadly it failed to do anything
exciting.
At the least, I'd include a thermal fuse, use an appropriate capacitor
(class Y?), due to what happens if the input cap shorts.

The capacitor is an X2 component and if you consider that the whole
circuit is basically a snubber circuit consisting of a resistor in
series with a suppression capacitor, then it's a very stable circuit
that is used in it's more primitive form in dimmers and appliances
around your house.

In the event of catastrophic failure of the capacitor, then the resistor
will open the circuit with a puff of smoke but little else. A typical
1W resistor won't hold 250W for more than a fraction of a second and
won't heat adjacent materials to anywhere near combustion point in that
time. That said, I suppose there's no harm in decreasing the power
rating of the resistor to half watt or even quarter watt, although
quarter is a bit low for a snubber type circuit.
Don't forget the 470K 1W resistor across the input.

I recommend two 1/4W 1M resistors in series for the benefit of the
increased voltage rating.
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
Your skin resistance model for this peak current is 100 Ohms, where is
that from ? Its usually taken as 1000-10,000 Ohms, so the peak current
falls to 300mA, and the time constant is 300uSec, in your model its
30uSec. Even if you assume that this current flows for all of the
300uSec, these levels are not dangerous.

But noticeable and prone to causing surprise.

It's surprising how many domestic appliances can give a little nip off
their plug when it is unplugged and touched. I've a very bad habit of
touching the pins deliberately when unplugging things just to see if
they hold a charge. (I believe it's called appliance masochism)
 
I

Ian Stirling

Jan 1, 1970
0
Clive Mitchell said:
But noticeable and prone to causing surprise.

A dremel tool, with a not small enough drain capacitor almost caused me
to fall off a ladder.
Yes, it discharges to unnoticable in a couple of seconds, but
I pulled it out and shifted my grip on the plug with the intent to coil
the flex up.
 
S

Steve

Jan 1, 1970
0
Clive said:
But noticeable and prone to causing surprise.

It's surprising how many domestic appliances can give a little nip off
their plug when it is unplugged and touched. I've a very bad habit of
touching the pins deliberately when unplugging things just to see if
they hold a charge. (I believe it's called appliance masochism)

But no nastier than the dryweather/fleece jacket effect. And certainly
no more dangerous.

Steve
 
I

Ian Stirling

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian Stirling said:
A dremel tool, with a not small enough drain capacitor almost caused me
to fall off a ladder.
^resistor.
 
R

R.Lewis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
Energy stored = 14millijoules.

Your skin resistance model for this peak current is 100 Ohms, where is
that from ? Its usually taken as 1000-10,000 Ohms, so the peak current
falls to 300mA, and the time constant is 300uSec, in your model its
30uSec. Even if you assume that this current flows for all of the
300uSec, these levels are not dangerous.

Why don't you bother to find something out about the subject before writing
such nonsense?
This circuit is dangerous - it is well above the threshold allowances of
BSEN,UL,CSA, ...... and on and on.
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.Lewis said:
Why don't you bother to find something out about the subject before writing
such nonsense?
This circuit is dangerous - it is well above the threshold allowances of
BSEN,UL,CSA, ...... and on and on.

Kewl!! Have you checked out the other projects? ;)


Oh sod it, I'll add the resistors in the diagram and make it all safe
and yummy. :)
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
But no nastier than the dryweather/fleece jacket effect. And certainly
no more dangerous.

I've updated the schematic on the site with a suitable discharge
resistor and even a token resistor for the LEDs.

If you think my circuit is bad then you can also enjoy the extra bit
I've added at the bottom of the page which shows the night light that
was part of the inspiration behind the fibre hack.

It's most distinctive feature is the mere 1 ohm series resistor to limit
the transient and inrush current to the capacitor and circuit. At least
I limited the current to around an amp on mine. The night light also
uses a rather unique method of turning the LEDs off during the
daytime... It shorts them out with a transistor! Yep, the unit takes
marginally more power when it's OFF. :)

The night light also has no zener across the electrolytic, so if the
LEDs ever go open circuit, then the voltage could theoretically rise to
about 330V across a capacitor rated at about 20V. (pop?)

But it's OK, it's CE approved. :p

For good measure I've hinted at mods that can be done on the night light
that can turn it into a cute icy blue wall wash-light.
 
I

Ian Stirling

Jan 1, 1970
0
To take this off in a completely unrelated direction, where do you
obtain these lights for a pound?
 
R

R.Lewis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Clive Mitchell said:
I've updated the schematic on the site with a suitable discharge
resistor and even a token resistor for the LEDs.

If you think my circuit is bad then you can also enjoy the extra bit
I've added at the bottom of the page which shows the night light that
was part of the inspiration behind the fibre hack.

It's most distinctive feature is the mere 1 ohm series resistor to limit
the transient and inrush current to the capacitor and circuit. At least
I limited the current to around an amp on mine. The night light also
uses a rather unique method of turning the LEDs off during the
daytime... It shorts them out with a transistor! Yep, the unit takes
marginally more power when it's OFF. :)

The night light also has no zener across the electrolytic, so if the
LEDs ever go open circuit, then the voltage could theoretically rise to
about 330V across a capacitor rated at about 20V. (pop?)

But it's OK, it's CE approved. :p

Yep that is the sort of stupid remark I would expect.
I will not ask which part of the LVD you personally are exempted for your
'CE approvals' but will repeat, for those hobbyist et al, such as 'Ian
Stirling', who have no particular knowledge of such things and who might be
tempted to build such a circuit from your design
SEEK ADVICE FROM A KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON BEFORE PLAYING WITH, OR BUILDING,
SUCH A CIRCUIT - IT IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL.
 
I

Ian Stirling

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.Lewis said:
Yep that is the sort of stupid remark I would expect.
I will not ask which part of the LVD you personally are exempted for your
'CE approvals' but will repeat, for those hobbyist et al, such as 'Ian

I think you'll find that the OP was commenting on an as-bought device
being CE marked.
Stirling', who have no particular knowledge of such things and who might be
tempted to build such a circuit from your design

I object to that slightly, I was the one that spelled out why these
things can be dangerous, and gave several reasons why it was a bad idea.
SEEK ADVICE FROM A KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON BEFORE PLAYING WITH, OR BUILDING,
SUCH A CIRCUIT - IT IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL.

Very, very good advice.
The vastly simpler way is to simply use a transformer.
Much harder to screw up, and if you pick one with a thermal fuse, there
is practically no way you can get it to do anything dangerous
if you keep adequate clearance from the AC terminals.
Although pre-built DC output adaptors are very, very cheap and would
suit just fine for most uses, only needing a resistor to set the LED
current. (and a socket to plug the PSU into)
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian Stirling said:
To take this off in a completely unrelated direction, where do you
obtain these lights for a pound?

Most of the tatty pound shops around Glasgow had them for a while, but
they don't seem to have them at the moment. Maybe they'll come back in.
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.Lewis said:
Yep that is the sort of stupid remark I would expect.
I will not ask which part of the LVD you personally are exempted for your
'CE approvals' but will repeat, for those hobbyist et al, such as 'Ian
Stirling', who have no particular knowledge of such things and who might be
tempted to build such a circuit from your design
SEEK ADVICE FROM A KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON BEFORE PLAYING WITH, OR BUILDING,
SUCH A CIRCUIT - IT IS POTENTIALLY LETHAL.

The CE approval bit was sarcastic, since the night light is genuinely CE
approved despite it's technical shortcomings.

Gee, you're just so unadventurous. :)
 
C

Clive Mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian Stirling said:
Very, very good advice.
The vastly simpler way is to simply use a transformer.
Much harder to screw up, and if you pick one with a thermal fuse, there
is practically no way you can get it to do anything dangerous
if you keep adequate clearance from the AC terminals.
Although pre-built DC output adaptors are very, very cheap and would
suit just fine for most uses, only needing a resistor to set the LED
current. (and a socket to plug the PSU into)

Are you guys aware that this is more or less the exact same circuitry
that is used in many of the "new generation" LED lamp replacements? The
use of capacitive voltage droppers is so common that there's a good
chance that there are several in use in your kitchen appliances right
now. Their main advantage over transformers is that they don't waste
energy as heat and are physically very small for low current
applications..

The other electronic circuit I've seen in an MR16 240V LED retrofit
actually uses a single integrated circuit, a single resistor (setting
the current threshold) and an electrolytic capacitor connected directly
across the series circuit of LEDs. The IC contains a rectifier and
switching regulator.
 
S

Steve

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.Lewis said:
Why don't you bother to find something out about the subject before writing
such nonsense?
Mr Skin resistance = 100 Ohms ? Not me who needs to find out about the
subject.

Bear in mind that a human body (nominal capacitance 200pF) can store
56mJ, at 15kV and be pissed off but unharmed by nearly 10A of discharge
current from a static event. How can you contend that an isolated 300nF
can be "dangerous" is interesting. Please justify it numerically.
This circuit is dangerous - it is well above the threshold allowances of
BSEN,UL,CSA, ...... and on and on.
Proof ?

Steve Taylor
BSc., C.Eng., MIEE
 
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