Poles and Zeros: book recomendation

[Kevin Aylward]

That was beautiful -- just what I was expecting and looking for.
The style... The phrasing... Almost like music... Thanks.

Unfortunately, much as I would like to, I can't take all the credit. I
am much inspired by the "Yes Minister" tv series, for example:

http://www.yes-minister.com/

Sir Humphrey: "Minister, the traditional allocation of executive
responsibilities has always been so determined as to liberate the
ministerial incumbent from the administrative minutiae by devolving the
managerial functions to those whose experience and qualifications have
better formed them for the performance of such humble offices, thereby
releasing their political overlords for the more onerous duties and
profound deliberations which are the inevitable concomitant of their
exalted position."

or

Sir Humphrey:

"If there had been investigations, which there haven't, or not
necessarily, or I'm not at liberty to say whether there have, there
would have been a project team which, had it existed, on which I cannot
comment, which would now have disbanded, if it had existed, and the
members returned to their original departments, if indeed there had been
any such members."

or

Sir Humphrey: "Well it was a conversation to the effect that, in view of
the somewhat nebulous and inexplicit nature of your remit, and the
arguably marginal and peripheral nature of your influence on the central
deliberations and decisions within the political process, there could be
a case for restructuring their action priorities in such a way as to
eliminate your liquidation from their immediate agenda."

or

Sir Humphrey:

"Well Minister, if you ask me for a straight answer, then I shall say
that, as far as we can see, looking at it by and large, taking one thing
with another in terms of the average of departments, then in the final
analysis it is probably true to say, that at the end of the day, in
general terms, you would probably find that, not to put too fine a point
on it, there probably wasn't very much in it one way or the other. As
far as one can see, at this stage."

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Winfield Hill]

Kevin Aylward wrote...

http://www.yes-minister.com/

Sir Humphrey: "Minister, the traditional allocation of executive
responsibilities has always been so determined as to liberate the
ministerial incumbent from the administrative minutiae by devolving the
managerial functions to those whose experience and qualifications have
better formed them for the performance of such humble offices, thereby
releasing their political overlords for the more onerous duties and
profound deliberations which are the inevitable concomitant of their
exalted position."

or

Sir Humphrey:
"If there had been investigations, which there haven't, or not
necessarily, or I'm not at liberty to say whether there have, there
would have been a project team which, had it existed, on which I cannot
comment, which would now have disbanded, if it had existed, and the
members returned to their original departments, if indeed there had been
any such members."

or

Sir Humphrey: "Well it was a conversation to the effect that, in view of
the somewhat nebulous and inexplicit nature of your remit, and the
arguably marginal and peripheral nature of your influence on the central
deliberations and decisions within the political process, there could be
a case for restructuring their action priorities in such a way as to
eliminate your liquidation from their immediate agenda."

or

Sir Humphrey:
"Well Minister, if you ask me for a straight answer, then I shall say
that, as far as we can see, looking at it by and large, taking one thing
with another in terms of the average of departments, then in the final
analysis it is probably true to say, that at the end of the day, in
general terms, you would probably find that, not to put too fine a point
on it, there probably wasn't very much in it one way or the other. As
far as one can see, at this stage."

Yes, indeed, those are precious, bringing tears to my eyes.

Thanks,
- Win

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Kevin Aylward wrote...

Yes, indeed, those are precious, bringing tears to my eyes.

Indeed yes. Some of them are absolute gems. Its a guaranteed ROFL. Nice
to see that you have watched it over the pond Win.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Jim Thompson]

Hello everybody. Due to my current job, over the last months I have been
finding myself working more and more often with -relatively simple-
electronic circuits, like amplifiers or filters. While I have a reasonable
understanding of those circuits in practical terms (capacitor here,
resistor there, we have a low-pass, the 3dB point is here...), I get
completely lost when people starts talking in terms of transfer functions
(that is, poles, zeros... the laplace transform domain). I have a
scientific formation, so I have a basic familiarity with the laplace
transform (or at least I had it over ten years ago, in college, so
refreshing my memory should be easy). However, I was never introduced to
its applications in electronics or any other practical field, for that
matter.

What I would like is a few recommendations of books that could give me a
basic understanding of these topics when applied to electronics, so that
when somebody says "we stabilize this circuit by adding a pole here" I
understand what he is saying. I have the mathematical background to
understand things in terms of differential equations, complex variables...
I just need a good source to learn these things from!

Thanks.

Two books by Ruel V. Churchill (McGraw-Hill):

"Operational Mathematics", 1958

"Complex Variables and Applications", 1960

...Jim Thompson

 

[gwhite]

Unfortunately, much as I would like to, I can't take all the credit. I
am much inspired by the "Yes Minister" tv series, for example:

http://www.yes-minister.com/

.....
Sir Humphrey:

"Well Minister, if you ask me for a straight answer, then I shall say
that, as far as we can see, looking at it by and large, taking one thing
with another in terms of the average of departments, then in the final
analysis it is probably true to say, that at the end of the day, in
general terms, you would probably find that, not to put too fine a point
on it, there probably wasn't very much in it one way or the other. As
far as one can see, at this stage."

Well now that is it. I'm inspired -- I think I'll break out my Bullshit Bingo
cards for the next rah-rah meeting here at work.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Well now that is it. I'm inspired -- I think I'll break out my
Bullshit Bingo cards for the next rah-rah meeting here at work.

Yes its very useful skill indeed. Maybe the most useful in the known
universe, after all, it gets one elected to president of the US.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Robert Baer]

Unfortunately, much as I would like to, I can't take all the credit. I
am much inspired by the "Yes Minister" tv series, for example:

http://www.yes-minister.com/

Sir Humphrey: "Minister, the traditional allocation of executive
responsibilities has always been so determined as to liberate the
ministerial incumbent from the administrative minutiae by devolving the
managerial functions to those whose experience and qualifications have
better formed them for the performance of such humble offices, thereby
releasing their political overlords for the more onerous duties and
profound deliberations which are the inevitable concomitant of their
exalted position."

or

Sir Humphrey:

"If there had been investigations, which there haven't, or not
necessarily, or I'm not at liberty to say whether there have, there
would have been a project team which, had it existed, on which I cannot
comment, which would now have disbanded, if it had existed, and the
members returned to their original departments, if indeed there had been
any such members."

or

Sir Humphrey: "Well it was a conversation to the effect that, in view of
the somewhat nebulous and inexplicit nature of your remit, and the
arguably marginal and peripheral nature of your influence on the central
deliberations and decisions within the political process, there could be
a case for restructuring their action priorities in such a way as to
eliminate your liquidation from their immediate agenda."

or

Sir Humphrey:

"Well Minister, if you ask me for a straight answer, then I shall say
that, as far as we can see, looking at it by and large, taking one thing
with another in terms of the average of departments, then in the final
analysis it is probably true to say, that at the end of the day, in
general terms, you would probably find that, not to put too fine a point
on it, there probably wasn't very much in it one way or the other. As
far as one can see, at this stage."

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Kevin:
I will Snail the latest copy of "Absolute Magnitude & Aboriginal
Science Fiction".
All i need is your address....

 

[Robert Baer]

Indeed yes. Some of them are absolute gems. Its a guaranteed ROFL. Nice
to see that you have watched it over the pond Win.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Kevin:
I will Snail the latest copy of "Absolute Magnitude & Aboriginal
Science Fiction".
All i need is your address....

 

[anthony wooldridge]

<loud buzz>
repetition of "as far as we/one can see"
This would not make it through "Just a minute"
another UK favorite, but Radio show this time
for those of you that don't get this over the pond
or maybe you do...

Anthony

 

[Robert Baer]

Kevin:
I will Snail the latest copy of "Absolute Magnitude & Aboriginal
Science Fiction".
All i need is your address....

Use [email protected] when e-mailing me your address.

 

[Robert Baer]

Yes its very useful skill indeed. Maybe the most useful in the known
universe, after all, it gets one elected to president of the US.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Use [email protected] when e-mailing me your address.

 

[Winfield Hill]

Phil Hobbs wrote...

I recommend going to the source: Network Analysis and
Feedback Amplifier Design, by H. W. Bode, Van Nostrand,
New York, 1945. You can find a used copy on Advanced
Book Exchange for probably ten bucks or so...

$85 to $175 for used copies.

$211.00 for a Print-to-Order REPRINT from AstroLogos Books.

Apparently booksellers know gold when they have it. :>)

Thanks,
- Win

 

[Active8]

Use [email protected] when e-mailing me your address.

it's on his site.

mike

 

[[email protected]]

I simply wanted to thank all the people who gave ideas, explanations
and suggestions about possible books and references I could use to learn
about the infamous "poles and zeros" and its relevance for stability
analysis. The initial explanation of Kevin Aylward and the comments it
triggered were of particular help in understanding the "visuals" of the
whole thing. Since I am going to want to dig deeper into this I am already
checking some of the suggested books (I have even ordered one of them
already, I had a chance to take a look at it in the university library and
it felt quite adequate to my needs!).

Thanks again to all of you!

 

[gwhite]

Yes its very useful skill indeed. Maybe the most useful in the known
universe, after all, it gets one elected to president of the US.

Funny -- it's the Peter Principle 10x. With well placed and "right" sounding
words, one can advance very well past one's level of incompetance. Ironically,
the Prez is not so glib, as you may have noticed. I think that may be a case of
"hearing what one wants to hear."

 

[Frank Miles]

What I would like is a few recommendations of books that could give me a
basic understanding of these topics when applied to electronics, so that
when somebody says "we stabilize this circuit by adding a pole here" I
understand what he is saying. I have the mathematical background to
understand things in terms of differential equations, complex variables...
I just need a good source to learn these things from!

First of all, the reason that the terminology is so confusing is that when a circuit
designer shows you an RC lowpass circuit that "has a pole at 1 kHz", you, knowing
complex variables, naturally look for an infinite singularity on the real frequency
axis, and are confused when you see a limp-looking smooth rolloff instead.

What you don't know (and it took me awhile to realize myself, long ago) is that sheer
laziness has prevented the designer from saying that the pole is really at i(1 kHz),
on the imaginary axis [or -i(1 kHz) depending on your Fourier transform sign
convention].*

Of course, "a" (single) pole must be on the negative real axis, not imaginary.

[snip excellent Bode recommendation]

-frank
--

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Phil Hobbs wrote...

$85 to $175 for used copies.

$211.00 for a Print-to-Order REPRINT from AstroLogos Books.

Apparently booksellers know gold when they have it. :>)

Thanks,
- Win

Brr. I got mine for free when they discarded it from the library at work. I
recommend putting an ABE want on it--that way they'll send you an email whenever
somebody lists one. Sometimes they come in pretty cheap if you're willing to wait.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs

 

[Phil Hobbs]

What you don't know (and it took me awhile to realize myself, long ago) is that sheer
laziness has prevented the designer from saying that the pole is really at i(1 kHz),
on the imaginary axis [or -i(1 kHz) depending on your Fourier transform sign
convention].*

Of course, "a" (single) pole must be on the negative real axis, not imaginary.

Well, that of course is true in the Laplace transform, which is sort of an
intermediate between the +i and -i Fourier transforms. In that case, though, you
can't see the real axis on the spectrum analyzer, and I have yet to hear anyone say
"there's a pole at -1 kHz" or "the 3 dB points are +-i times six kiloradians per
second". ;-)

I haven't used a Laplace transform for anything in years and years, mainly because
the two-sided Laplace is a renamed Fourier, and the one-sided Laplace has such an
ugly inverse. With the modern use of Heaviside unit step functions and so forth,
which make Fourier transforms of one-sided functions well defined, there doesn't seem
to be any point in using the (one-sided) Laplace any more.

Is there?

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs

 

[Kevin Aylward]

What you don't know (and it took me awhile to realize myself, long
ago) is that sheer laziness has prevented the designer from saying
that the pole is really at i(1 kHz), on the imaginary axis [or -i(1
kHz) depending on your Fourier transform sign convention].*

Of course, "a" (single) pole must be on the negative real axis, not
imaginary.

Well, that of course is true in the Laplace transform, which is sort
of an intermediate between the +i and -i Fourier transforms. In that
case, though, you can't see the real axis on the spectrum analyzer,
and I have yet to hear anyone say "there's a pole at -1 kHz" or "the
3 dB points are +-i times six kiloradians per second". ;-)

I haven't used a Laplace transform for anything in years and years,
mainly because the two-sided Laplace is a renamed Fourier, and the
one-sided Laplace has such an ugly inverse.

But which just happens to be indispensable.

With the modern use of
Heaviside unit step functions and so forth, which make Fourier
transforms of one-sided functions well defined, there doesn't seem to
be any point in using the (one-sided) Laplace any more.

Is there?

Ahmm...and just how do you propose to do a transient analysis using
Fourier?

In EE applications, the fundamental application of the Laplace
transform, is to convert differential equations w.r.t. time into
algebraic equations. Inverting the algebraic solution gives one the
solution in the time domain.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

What you don't know (and it took me awhile to realize myself, long
ago) is that sheer laziness has prevented the designer from saying
that the pole is really at i(1 kHz), on the imaginary axis [or -i(1
kHz) depending on your Fourier transform sign convention].*

Of course, "a" (single) pole must be on the negative real axis, not
imaginary.

Well, that of course is true in the Laplace transform, which is sort
of an intermediate between the +i and -i Fourier transforms. In that
case, though, you can't see the real axis on the spectrum analyzer,
and I have yet to hear anyone say "there's a pole at -1 kHz" or "the
3 dB points are +-i times six kiloradians per second". ;-)

I haven't used a Laplace transform for anything in years and years,
mainly because the two-sided Laplace is a renamed Fourier, and the
one-sided Laplace has such an ugly inverse.

But which just happens to be indispensable.

With the modern use of
Heaviside unit step functions and so forth, which make Fourier
transforms of one-sided functions well defined, there doesn't seem to
be any point in using the (one-sided) Laplace any more.

Is there?

Ahmm...and just how do you propose to do a transient analysis using
Fourier?

In EE applications, the fundamental application of the Laplace
transform, is to convert differential equations w.r.t. time into
algebraic equations. Inverting the algebraic solution gives one the
solution in the time domain.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.