Power supply for AMP in CAR

MP1

Dec 7, 2003
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The darlington article would seem this way if you only looked at the schematic and read the first few lines. If you read the article close enough you will learn that these resistors are not necessary and that they can be added to speed up the transition. Not to keep the supply from floating. This is the reason ON Semi uses this method. Speed of transition.

I gave some thought to posting a schematic with both versions with and without the resistors, but elected to post the complete article and let everyone read instead.

MP

 

audioguru2

Apr 6, 2004
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MP,
Don't you agree that those cheap resistors have nothing to lose and everything to gain?

 

MP1

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No. I see no gain here and a question as to whether the circuit will function as originally intended with the voltage divider network that it will create. This is not the same as the resistors in the darlington configuration from the article. Note how you will be adding voltage dividers in combination with the other resistors already in the circuit.

MP

 

ante1

Jan 24, 2004
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MP,

What is protecting the transistors in the Zapco circuit from destruction if the current starts to flow unequally through the emitters ?

Ante ::)

 

MP1

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ante, I am not sure what you refer to the zapco circuit?
If you refer to the darlington pairs in the inverter project, the emitters are not directly connected to ground on the first transistor.
This is only a problem when you have parallel transistors sharing a common ground on the emitter.

MP

 

audioguru2

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MP,
With the 8 ohm resistors gone, there is no voltage divider. The pull-down resistors turn-off the output transistors and discharge capacitances, when the driver transistors turn-off. Without pull-down resistors, the bases of the output transistors gradually (as their capacitances slowly discharge though their leakage) "float" down to a voltage level that is determined by their substantial leakage current (which increases with temperature) and so the output transistors don't completely turn-off.

The Zapco PSU schematic is in Reply #28, and shows 4 paralleled transistors on each side, without emitter resistors.

Ante,
Zapco either matched the paralleled transistors, or had good luck.
Think of emitter resistors as a form of negative feedback. When a high-gain transistor attempts to conduct a large collector current, then that current creates a voltage-drop across the emitter resistor, which reduces the base-emitter voltage and therefore reduces base-drive.
A transistor with less gain will attempt to conduct less current and therefore will have less base-drive reduction. So the gains of the transistors are equalized.
Without emitter resistors, when a high-gain transistor is paralleled with a low-gain one, then the high-gain transistor will conduct more current than the low-gain one, which results in unbalanced current sharing. Without balanced sharing, the high-gain transistor may exceed its maximum current and/or thermal rating and blow-up.

 

audioguru2

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For all,
In another web-site's projects forum, there was a request for an inverter to provide all the power for an electricity-heated home.
Numbers such as 12,000 Amps at 12 Volts (144,000 Watts) were discussed! Enough batteries to fill a large garage!
But they didn't think of charging them by dragging them along the ground behind a motorcycle.

 

MP1

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I went back through the posts and found the zapco post. There are quite a few schematic posts in this thread. You are trying to redesign an amp that is already on the market? Build a new amp? What is the purpose of this subject?
This thread does not seem to have any direction.

MP

 

ante1

Jan 24, 2004
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MP,
Now that you found the Zapco circuit, this is only one of many in fact most of the circuits I have seen and repaired have no emitter resistors. Question is how do they get away with it? All this equipment is out there working day after day and they are all designed wrongly??

Ante ::)

 

MP1

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ante, I have been researching this question since you and I had several discussions on the matter some time ago. You will have to have "some" resistance. You cannot have a direct short in an AC or DC circuit without ending up with a problem. However, what I have found is that these circuits are working on a different principle.
1. The quick switching action is not considered a direct short such as any other alternating current that crosses the zero path over and over again. Please note that some digital circuits on the market work entirely on the principal that switching capacitors which are connected to ground on and off with different duty cycles makes a variable resistor which is digitally controlled.
2. The circuit is providing resistance in other ways. There is also resistance in the transformer as well as the capacitive/reactive resistances in the circuit.
With this in mind, one does not need added resistance if the circuit is designed correctly. Therefore, I will have to say that both methods can be correct.
You will notice that this is a different view than I had when we discussed this before. As I am researching this more, I am leaning more toward your view on this, since I can see where the resistance comes from.
Also, I have had to brush up on what I know in this area of electronics as I am now working more with solar design than I have been before.

MP

 

ante1

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MP,
With all respect; in the inverter a short never occur because there is a transformer winding in series, which is the resistance. The winding is an inductor so it has a time constant and it opposes to a change in current, this prevents a short. This phenomena is what we use in a converter. I am very happy that our opinions are getting closer! ;D

Ante ::)

 

audioguru2

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MP and ANTE,
Maybe they use more transistors than is necessary in order to reduce the gamble of a high-gain transistor "hogging" the current. Also, extra transistors are probably cheaper than having many emitter resistors.
You didn't comment about my explanation for emitter resistors that I posted previously:

Ante,
Zapco either matched the paralleled transistors, or had good luck.
Think of emitter resistors as a form of negative feedback. When a high-gain transistor attempts to conduct a large collector current, then that current creates a voltage-drop across the emitter resistor, which reduces the base-emitter voltage and therefore reduces base-drive.
A transistor with less gain will attempt to conduct less current and therefore will have less base-drive reduction. So the gains of the transistors are equalized.
Without emitter resistors, when a high-gain transistor is paralleled with a low-gain one, then the high-gain transistor will conduct more current than the low-gain one, which results in unbalanced current sharing. Without balanced sharing, the high-gain transistor may exceed its maximum current and/or thermal rating and blow-up.
 

MP1

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closer than what you might think ante. What you have stated is approximately what I was saying but in a different way. I have not had much use for square wave inverters in the past.
Linear is quite different as I have found on my bench, though. And of course, the sinewave inverters are a little different because of this.

A comment about changing the transistors: Why would you do anything different? If the circuit has caused a break down in one transistor, I would be willing to believe the others have had a hard life as well. I always replace components as sets, too.

MP

 

audioguru2

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Ante,
Yes, I agree that transistors from the same batch will have the same gain and therefore can be paralleled without emitter resistors. I also agree that changing them all together maintains their matching.

 

audioguru2

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MP,
Back to the "darlington transistors" argument. Power darlingtons also use base-emitter resistors too:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/MJ/MJE803.pdf

 

MP1

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Sure, lots of devices use this array. As it stated in the pdf that I posted, it is for speed of transition. I do not understand where you think there is an argument....unless you mean you are arguing with the contents of the article that I posted.

MP

 

hotwaterwizard2

Jan 8, 2004
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Here is another Amp Schematic.

Pyramid PB300 and there are no mosfet here either.



Click on image for higher resolution

 
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