Problem #1: How Much Does Heat Cost?

[Steve Spence]

Calculating and Comparing the Cost of Heat

We've all heard the adage "You have to spend money to make money." The real
trick lies in how you spend your money. Would you rather spend $100.00 for
electrical energy or $100.00 for a cord of wood? Well, it depends on what
you get for $100.00. If we limit our discussion to buying heat and assume a
cord of wood costs $100.00, how much heat will a cord of wood produce and
how much heat can we buy from the electric company for $100.00?

http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/heatcost.htm

 

[H. E. Taylor]

Calculating and Comparing the Cost of Heat

We've all heard the adage "You have to spend money to make money." The real
trick lies in how you spend your money. Would you rather spend $100.00 for
electrical energy or $100.00 for a cord of wood? Well, it depends on what
you get for $100.00. If we limit our discussion to buying heat and assume a
cord of wood costs $100.00, how much heat will a cord of wood produce and
how much heat can we buy from the electric company for $100.00?

http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/heatcost.htm

This is a good page Steve, and a good idea.
It would be interesting to see how natural gas stacks up as well.

<regards>
-het



--
"To dream in the City of Sorrows is to dream of a better future."
-old Minbari proverb

PV FAQ: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/pv_faq.html
H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/

 

[William P.N. Smith]

This is a good page Steve, and a good idea.
It would be interesting to see how natural gas stacks up as well.

Indeed, good page, thanks! He's given us the tools we need to figure
out how NG stacks up, but I'm too lazy/busy to figure it out myself.
8*) Another vote for adding NG to the page!

 

[Dale Farmer]

Calculating and Comparing the Cost of Heat

We've all heard the adage "You have to spend money to make money." The real
trick lies in how you spend your money. Would you rather spend $100.00 for
electrical energy or $100.00 for a cord of wood? Well, it depends on what
you get for $100.00. If we limit our discussion to buying heat and assume a
cord of wood costs $100.00, how much heat will a cord of wood produce and
how much heat can we buy from the electric company for $100.00?

http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/heatcost.htm

Sign up for all the junk mail lists. Especially the ones that mail you
catalogs
printed on newsprint rather than slick paper. Now you will never run out of
firelighting material.

--Dale

 

[daestrom]

This is a good page Steve, and a good idea.
It would be interesting to see how natural gas stacks up as well.

Yes, I like it too. Especially the discussion of moisture content. Many
people don't realize how much this affects the heating value of wood (also
applies to coal).

Re: Natural gas, look for the cost/therm on your utility bill (if you have
gas service). For my area of NY, it has run between $0.50 and $0.77 a
therm. Now all you need to know is that one 'therm' is 100 000 BTU's

100 000 BTU's/therm * 1kWhr/3413 BTU's = 29.3 kWhr/therm

So.... In a modern, condensing furnace (say 95% efficient), we have....

$0.65 /therm / 29.3kWhr/therm / 0.95 = $0.0234/kWhr of heat delivered (not
counting the electricity to actually operate the furnace).

daestrom

 

[Chris Torek]

Re: Natural gas, look for the cost/therm on your utility bill (if you have
gas service). For my area of NY, it has run between $0.50 and $0.77 a
therm.

For some reason, Questar Gas in Utah charges by the "decatherm"
instead of "therm". Of course a "decatherm" is just a million
BTU. Given the traditional pricing of gas in $/MMBtu, why they
call it a "decatherm" on my bill is a mystery to me.

So.... In a modern, condensing furnace (say 95% efficient)...

Does anyone know offhand whether the numbers on the stickers are
"actual measured" numbers, or merely "marketing numbers"? That
is, for my two furnaces[%] that claim 93.6% efficiency, are those
real, or just "speed-of-light / will not exceed" values?

$0.65 /therm / 29.3kWhr/therm / 0.95 = $0.0234/kWhr of heat delivered (not
counting the electricity to actually operate the furnace).

One of the supposed selling points of the variable-speed DC fan
motors in my furnaces is increased electrical efficiency. If
Furnace A claims 95.7% gas efficiency, while Furnace B has only(?)
93.6%, but A uses a belt-driven squirrel-cage fan, can we really
make up the difference?

[% Multi-zone system, 1963-style; I replaced both of the original
39-year-old probably-50%-efficient furnaces last year. There was
not all that much choice in models as they are counterflow systems.]

(Note that until this year, prices in Utah were below $4/MMBtu,
too. Now that Warren Buffet's new Kern River pipeline capacity is
on line, all that "excess" natural gas from the producing basins
around here is making it to California. Thus, in the spring, the
Utah price went from $3.50 to $4.90 overnight, while the CA price
went from $5.50 to $5.45. Hence the furnace replacement last
year -- it was due anyway, and I wanted to get them in before the
prices shot up.)

 

[George Ghio]

Calculating and Comparing the Cost of Heat

We've all heard the adage "You have to spend money to make money." The real
trick lies in how you spend your money. Would you rather spend $100.00 for
electrical energy or $100.00 for a cord of wood? Well, it depends on what
you get for $100.00. If we limit our discussion to buying heat and assume a
cord of wood costs $100.00, how much heat will a cord of wood produce and
how much heat can we buy from the electric company for $100.00?

http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/heatcost.htm

Had a look at the page for comparing the cost of wood and electric
heating.

Not to bad for half the story.

Where is the rest of it?

What about the embedded energy and its cost? Surely this should be
taken into account as well?

What about the energy trail?

What about the losses in getting from primary energy to end use?

What about the Cumulative Efficiency?

And as for the good Count Rumford he was not American at all as he
wanted to be British so bad that when the war for independence broke out
he ran off to England. He sure didn't want to be an American. Up until
the war for independence Americans were British.

George

 

[Steve Spence]

just plug in the btu of natural gas, and your cost per therm. the formulas
are there.

 

[Steve Spence]

100 cubic feet (1 CCF or Therm) of natural gas has about 103100 Btu
One gallon of kerosene has about 134000 Btu
One gallon of propane has about 91600 Btu

how much do you pay for a therm (CCF) of natural gas?

 

[Steve Spence]

He was born in the America's, that makes him an American. Do you think a
Dutchman living in NY was anymore British than Benjamin? Just because he was
a wuss doesn't mean he made a bad fireplace. You were born in America,
George, what made you run away? ;-)

This is the first of a series of articles by Robert. As Paul Harvey might
say, "stay tuned for the rest of the story" .....

 

[daestrom]

Had a look at the page for comparing the cost of wood and electric
heating.

Not to bad for half the story.

Where is the rest of it?

Typical back-handed complement.

What about the embedded energy and its cost? Surely this should be
taken into account as well?

What about the energy trail?

What about the losses in getting from primary energy to end use?

The cost of fuel includes 'delivery' and 'primary energy' costs. Energy
expended in getting it from well-head to user is part of the costs charged.
'embedded energy' costs to produce the equipment are a factor in the price
of furnace/wood-stove.

You're blowing a lot of 'buzz words' that have very little to do with how
much one needs to know to pick a heating fuel source. All of your 'hype'
shows that you would rather criticize and talk about esoteric vagaries than
'where the rubber meets the road', or in this case, 'how much out of my
pocket to stay warm'.

I don't need to know how much energy it takes to build a wood stove, I just
need to know I can get one for $600 and how long it will last. I don't need
to know how much the truck-driver spends on diesel to deliver two cords of
wood, I just need to know if he wants $150 or $300 dollars for the load.
And how much of my time it will take to stack it, carry it inside, and haul
away the ashes. If I *really* want to look at details, I'll want to know
how often I have to pay to have my chimney cleaned and how much *that*
costs.

Looking forward, I might want to 'guess' how likely the price of a cord of
wood will change in the future. Perhaps it will rise as more people chose
wood, perhaps it will fall if more suppliers come on-line. But such
prognostications are 'guesses'.

But 'embedded energy costs' and 'energy trail'?? Give us a break!!!

daestrom

 

[George Ghio]

He was born in the America's, that makes him an American. Do you think a
Dutchman living in NY was anymore British than Benjamin? Just because he was
a wuss doesn't mean he made a bad fireplace.

Actually he was born in the British Empire. Sort of makes him a Brit
really. Until the revoloution America was French, Spanish, British and I
think Russian in the north west although the Russians may have come a
bit later. After the war good ol' Ben and the rest became American (as a
country). The Count Rumford remained British. That really is all that
can be said. Except that his fireplace design remains one of the best
around even if it is not commonly used today.

You were born in America, George, what made you run away? ;-)

Richard Nixon. And if the Bushes are anything to go by I sure can't see
any reason to come back.

This is the first of a series of articles by Robert. As Paul Harvey might
say, "stay tuned for the rest of the story" .....

I sure hope so. I intend to direct people to this site as it is very
informative and knowledgable if somewhat wordy.

But there is so much more to the story of energy.

While I use wood for heating I do so because I have a supply that will
last me forever with good management. I run a 7 year coppice program.

OTOH wood is not really a viable resource for most people.

George

 

[George Ghio]

Typical back-handed complement.


The cost of fuel includes 'delivery' and 'primary energy' costs. Energy
expended in getting it from well-head to user is part of the costs charged.
'embedded energy' costs to produce the equipment are a factor in the price
of furnace/wood-stove.

You're blowing a lot of 'buzz words' that have very little to do with how
much one needs to know to pick a heating fuel source. All of your 'hype'
shows that you would rather criticize and talk about esoteric vagaries than
'where the rubber meets the road', or in this case, 'how much out of my
pocket to stay warm'.

I don't need to know how much energy it takes to build a wood stove, I just
need to know I can get one for $600 and how long it will last. I don't need
to know how much the truck-driver spends on diesel to deliver two cords of
wood, I just need to know if he wants $150 or $300 dollars for the load.
And how much of my time it will take to stack it, carry it inside, and haul
away the ashes. If I *really* want to look at details, I'll want to know
how often I have to pay to have my chimney cleaned and how much *that*
costs.

Looking forward, I might want to 'guess' how likely the price of a cord of
wood will change in the future. Perhaps it will rise as more people chose
wood, perhaps it will fall if more suppliers come on-line. But such
prognostications are 'guesses'.

But 'embedded energy costs' and 'energy trail'?? Give us a break!!!

daestrom

So your saying that you have no idea about where your energy comes from
or where it goes. Just another typical yank that can't see anything but
dollars in your pocket.

If people do not come to understand all the story of where energy comes
from or even goes to then they will have a very limited future. America
is using energy at a rate far faster than their resources can supply. In
fact if it was not for the energy supplies bought (And I am being kind
here)from around the world the United States of a Miracle would have
ground to a halt by now.

George

 

[[email protected]]

Calculating and Comparing the Cost of Heat

We've all heard the adage "You have to spend money to make money." The real
trick lies in how you spend your money. Would you rather spend $100.00 for
electrical energy or $100.00 for a cord of wood? Well, it depends on what
you get for $100.00. If we limit our discussion to buying heat and assume a
cord of wood costs $100.00, how much heat will a cord of wood produce and
how much heat can we buy from the electric company for $100.00?

http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/heatcost.htm

thanks. bookmarked it.

 

[daestrom]

So your saying that you have no idea about where your energy comes from
or where it goes. Just another typical yank that can't see anything but
dollars in your pocket.

No, you're (note correct spelling) jumping to conclusions. Must be the only
exercise you get.

I'm saying your 'smoke and mirrors' about 'primary energy' and 'embedded
energy' is just a lot of bull. It has *NO BEARING* on how much money costs
to heat a home. If those factors affect the price of delivered wood or
natural gas, then they are *already* included in the price. If they don't
affect the price, then they are IRRELEVANT.

If people do not come to understand all the story of where energy comes
from or even goes to then they will have a very limited future. America
is using energy at a rate far faster than their resources can supply. In
fact if it was not for the energy supplies bought (And I am being kind
here)from around the world the United States of a Miracle would have
ground to a halt by now.

Any excuse to bash the US, heh George?? Since you obviously don't live
here, how can you claim to be such an 'expert'?? I know, you probably
visited here once and have formed all your opinions from that.

You seem to always take the honest work of someone who's trying to be
helpful and sharing it with others, and turn it into some political
discussion and try to build up your (again note correct spelling) pathetic
ego by tearing down another's work.

daestrom

 

[George Ghio]

No, you're (note correct spelling) jumping to conclusions. Must be the only
exercise you get.

Well all you want is the direct dollar comparison. Money in you're
pocket.

I'm saying your 'smoke and mirrors' about 'primary energy' and 'embedded
energy' is just a lot of bull. It has *NO BEARING* on how much money costs
to heat a home. If those factors affect the price of delivered wood or
natural gas, then they are *already* included in the price. If they don't
affect the price, then they are IRRELEVANT.

It is not alot of bull at all.If the US is to overcome their wasteful
energy use patterns then people will have to learn what it is they are
in fact using and where it goes.

Any excuse to bash the US, heh George?? Since you obviously don't live
here, how can you claim to be such an 'expert'?? I know, you probably
visited here once and have formed all your opinions from that.

No I don't live there. This is what gives me the edge over you.

You see, I was born and grew up in California. I now live in Australia
and have developed a much wider view of world affairs. Something you
could use.

You seem to always take the honest work of someone who's trying to be
helpful and sharing it with others, and turn it into some political
discussion and try to build up your (again note correct spelling) pathetic
ego by tearing down another's work.

Not tearing down anything. It is a great page and very informative. But
is only based on money in your pocket. While this is of concern for all
of us what about you national security? What about your energy future?

People like you with the shallow how much do I get attitude make JFK's
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your
country" a joke.

George

 

[Scott A Crosby]

Calculating and Comparing the Cost of Heat

We've all heard the adage "You have to spend money to make money." The real
trick lies in how you spend your money. Would you rather spend $100.00 for
electrical energy or $100.00 for a cord of wood? Well, it depends on what
you get for $100.00. If we limit our discussion to buying heat and assume a
cord of wood costs $100.00, how much heat will a cord of wood produce and
how much heat can we buy from the electric company for $100.00?

http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/heatcost.htm

Nice resource. However $100 of electricity can produce more heat than
just running it through resistive heating elements. In cases where one
only wants low-temperature heat, it looks like a heat pump can have an
'efficiency' of about 200%.

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications...d_Cooling_with_a_Heat_Pump_Section6.cfm#costs

Scott

 

[NRFPT]

Well all you want is the direct dollar comparison. Money in you're
pocket.

It is not alot of bull at all.If the US is to overcome their wasteful
energy use patterns then people will have to learn what it is they are
in fact using and where it goes.

No I don't live there. This is what gives me the edge over you.

You see, I was born and grew up in California. I now live in Australia
and have developed a much wider view of world affairs. Something you
could use.

Not tearing down anything. It is a great page and very informative. But
is only based on money in your pocket. While this is of concern for all
of us what about you national security? What about your energy future?

People like you with the shallow how much do I get attitude make JFK's
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your
country" a joke.

George

Nothing to say again.

*Plonk*

 

[George Ghio]

Nothing to say again.

*Plonk*

But then you never have anything to say. Do you Willie?

 

[Steve Spence]

very true, but this article had a simple focus which was stated at the
beginning. Heat pumps have a very large install cost. Especially ones that
work in cold climates (ground source). Wood still beats heat pumps for fuel
cost, but not necessarily for emissions. Depends on where your electric
comes from. A Tarm Wood Gasifier is cleaner emissions wise than a electric
heat pump fueled by coal generated electric. It's also cheaper to install,
and run.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org