RC Transmission Lines (Wafer-Scale)

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Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
JosephKK said:
Joel Koltner [email protected] posted to
sci.electronics.design:




Actually the question is more an ongoing issue of what is currently
affordable. A typical new desktop has more (and faster) memory,
disk, and compute power than a 1960's (or even a 1970's)
supercomputer.




Let's see, 1987, i could make all three of them (as well as some
flavors of unit workstations) stand up, beg, roll over, and do most
anything i wanted of it.




Maybe, if you like being infected with various forms of malware.
** In over 7 years, been "bit" only a few times, and that was early in
that period when Win98SE was common.
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
It's ironic that most of the compute power in the world goes to
gaming. The most compute-intensive thing we do, in fact the only
compute-intensive thing we do, is fpga p+r. Design-rule checking the
most complex pc board we make takes about 5 seconds on a
standard-performance PC. The rest of what we do is dominated by our
DSL rate.

Whatzisname's law: All computers wait at the same speed.
Even Spice usually runs fast. I guess em simulation could be slow, but
we rarely do that, thank Goodness.

Done the simple-minded way (the way I'd like to do it if I could), one
device design comes out as something like

10**9 cells x 32 bytes x 2 FLOP/byte x 200 steps/cycle x 100 cycles/run
x 100 runs/design =~ 10**17 operations

per design, running in about 32 gig of memory. Could take awhile, even
on a fast parallel machine. The 200 steps/cycle number is needed only
when using silver--because the real part of its index of refraction is
only about 0.1, so the phase velocity in silver is almost 10 times c.
Intel must be running scared; some day pc's will be good enough and
become as exciting as toasters, and $5 Taiwanese cpu's will be
powerful enough.

PCs are already less exciting than toasters--in both good and bad
senses. My microprocessor-controlled toaster has buttons for toasting
bagels and frozen bread, which usually more or less work if it starts
out cold, but I never used to worry about my mechanical toaster crashing
and having to be rebooted (which happens about once a week with this
one). My cluster needs rebooting about twice a year, but doesn't make
good toast.

Commoditization is the eventual fate of just about every technology, and
the whole industry has been scrambling for many years to stay high on
the food chain. IBM gave up making displays, PCs, and disc drives
mostly for that reason.

On the other hand, having the best-performing and most reliable servers
is really important to us, partly because of the price premium, but also
because it drags along a lot of software and consulting revenue. That's
one reason that I've been working on high performance, low power optical
interconnections: in a highly multiprocessor world, bandwidth needs to
grow at least as the square of the number of processor cores if you're
going to keep tight coupling between cores. That tight coupling is
really important because most applications don't parallelize terribly
well, and tight coupling is the only way to keep the average performance
up. Tightly coupled machines are dramatically easier to program, which
is another way of saying the same thing.

It's the software fads that will keep CPU demand going...it's amazing
how many computrons you can soak up by using the revolutionary
interpreted language-du-jour. Good luck running anything written in
Java on even a vanilla Pentium. (Remember when everybody made fun of
Intel for that name?)

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
 
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John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
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** I run three OSes: DOS/Win3.11 for files that were generated back in
the DOS daze as well as doing projects that almost nothing else will do;
Win98Se for 99+% of my offline and online work (totally immune to some
of the more current hacks, and user base too small to be a target), and
Win2K for the "fancy" stuff like CorelDraw, Spice, PCB work and on
occasion, multi-million digit software work.
My other computer is an older P2-266 running DOS almost 100% of the
time, but it also supports the other 2 OSes.
Used mainly to run an old A/D board for datalogging via custom
programs written in BASIC and compiled for use.

We still program our test racks under DOS, using either a rackmount PC
or a VME embedded processor. The resulting programs are realtime to
the microsecond.

John
 
C

colin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Baer said:
Phil Hobbs wrote:
Forgive me for a rather nasty question.
What is this phoney push for more junk on a piece of silicon to support
what used to be relatively simple applications?
What was wrong with KISS?
In a personal computer, one does not need 2^10 core CPUs, or even dual
core; any CPU speed over 1Ghz is wasted, and for 99+% uses Win98Se is more
than good enough.
Now, if one gets into graphics (read: games, design PCBs or other
complex artwork), then more speed becomes useful and Win2K becomes a
better choice.
Oh, you say, we "need" dual (or quad) core for graphics.
What the hell is that large graphics chip on the fancy video card for?
Boat anchor?
In fact, what good was the MMX instruction set for, since the sound card
already supported those functions.
On a cell phone guess what - its purpose is to send and receive calls,
period.
Want to do something else like portable music - players have been around
for over 10 years that do that; they just get smaller and store more.
Etc etc and etc (courtesy of Yul Brynner in the King and I).


more and more of the silicon is being used to overcome bottlenecks
elsewhere,
it doesnt actually do any more processing just tries to keep the very fast
core
ocupied.
if only we could make use of more distributed processing
each core wouldnt need to be as fast and so could use much less silicon.

microcontollers easily manage 40mips+ and they run so cool
they dont need any heatsink. im sure a modern disc drive could
run something like msdos on its own.

nothing can be done about it though as there is no incentive
to develop distributed software as there is little distributed hardware,
and so there is no incentive to develop the hardware as there is no
software.

Colin =^.^=
 
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Guy Macon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
Specialized applications need to have specialized hardware & firmware
to handle the particular needs.

You are the one who brougth up "2^10 core CPUs." Is that not
"specialized hardware for specialized applications?"
Routers and webservers are very good examples of tossing software at
a problem just because a "fancy PC" has quad core, 1+Ghz FSB, etc.

You think a quad core PC 48 can inspect every packet coming in from
each of 48 separate gigabit ethernet ports?

Agains i say, some computers are not PCs. Some computers are
routers with 48 separate gigabit ethernet ports and a requirement
to inspect every packet coming in from every port.
 
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Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
colin said:
more and more of the silicon is being used to overcome bottlenecks
elsewhere,
it doesnt actually do any more processing just tries to keep the very fast
core
ocupied.
if only we could make use of more distributed processing
each core wouldnt need to be as fast and so could use much less silicon.

microcontollers easily manage 40mips+ and they run so cool
they dont need any heatsink. im sure a modern disc drive could
run something like msdos on its own.

nothing can be done about it though as there is no incentive
to develop distributed software as there is little distributed hardware,
and so there is no incentive to develop the hardware as there is no
software.

Colin =^.^=
Cluck..cluck...good old chicken and egg problem....cluck....cluck...
 
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Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Guy said:
You are the one who brougth up "2^10 core CPUs." Is that not
"specialized hardware for specialized applications?"
** Check. Methinks you mention some of those, especially below.
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Baer [email protected] posted to sci.electronics.design:
** In over 7 years, been "bit" only a few times, and that was early
in that period when Win98SE was common.

Gee, i have only been bit once, though i was bit hard. And it was
back when Win98SE was popular and i was still using it regularly.

I doubt that you could survive some of the nasty places that i have
explored. Not that you would ever go there in the first place, but i
am much too curious for my own good.
 
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