Re: Strange problem with low energy light bulb

A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
No ban has been announced. In fact this would be a good time to lobby
against
one.

Nothing will (can) legally happen until there is a relevant Directive.

Graham

Your faith in the ability of Mr Little Guy, to do anything to derail
something that has been proposed as an EU - wide directive, particularly one
that has been instigated by Germany, is touching, but sadly misplaced I
fear. Just witness how everybody thought that the nations who rose up and
voted against the constitution, had killed it dead. Now, it has just got up
again, and has sneaked round to the back door, where you can't see it ...

Arfa
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
"Eeyore" wrote


Your faith in the ability of Mr Little Guy, to do anything to derail
something that has been proposed as an EU - wide directive, particularly one
that has been instigated by Germany, is touching, but sadly misplaced I
fear. Just witness how everybody thought that the nations who rose up and
voted against the constitution, had killed it dead. Now, it has just got up
again, and has sneaked round to the back door, where you can't see it ...

Well, if you accept it as a done deal obviously nothing will change.

Graham
 
M

Mr.T

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard Crowley said:
Doesn't seem unusual to me (or any of my acquaintances).

Well I'm not the only one here, not to mention many of my friends and
aquaintences.
Have you ever measured your mains voltage? Is it within
"normal" specifications?

Yep, no problems where I live.
And maybe you missed the last dozen times I said I have NO problems with
normal fluorescent tubes and incandescent bulbs.

MrT.
 
M

Mr.T

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Eeysore Lying Half Wit" "

** Got * ABSOLUTELY NOTHING * to do with what is in the vast majority of
CFLs in use now and on sale now.

But is exactly what he claimed, and Phil said was "laughable" :)
Go **** yourself -
you ASININE pommy **** !!

That's just Phil's way of saying he was wrong :)

MrT.
 
M

Mr.T

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Lat time I checked, newspapers don't make the law.

You've never heard of Rupert Murdoch and James Packer then?

MrT.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Mr.Turd the Cunthead "

But is exactly what he claimed,


** Absolutely not.

What a posturing ASS claimed was not restricted to one, special sub-type
of Philip's product.

His other claim was totally false as well.




........ Phil
 
M

Mr.T

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison the Cunthead said:
** Absolutely not.

Strange, it reads that way before you snipped it :)


He never said ALL CFL's were less than 2mg, but one might reasonably expect
it to happen eventually.
However if the mercury in each lamp IS reduced by a factor of 4, and a
hundred times as many lamps are being used, what is the net result? :-(

MrT.
 
A

Arny Krueger

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mr.T said:
But is exactly what he claimed, and Phil said was
"laughable" :)


That's just Phil's way of saying he was wrong :)

10-4 good buddy!
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Well, if you accept it as a done deal obviously nothing will change.

Graham

As I said Graham, your faith in a system of democracy that allows the small
man to have a say, is heartning even, but rather out of date I think. We
have not had democracy of that sort in the UK for at least the last 10 years
( ;~} ) and probably longer. How many people marched on London opposing
the invasion of Iraq ? How many people signed the petition against
introducing road charging ? How many people voted overwhelmingly against a
European constitution ? How many people stood up and demonstrated against
crippling fuel taxes ? The list is endless, and if there are any places
where Joe Public has had any effect on what a government has decided is
'good for the people', then they are small victories indeed, and would need
a lot of looking for. With the current hype and hysteria about man-made
global warming, there is no way that Ms Merkel and her fellow
"Euro-we-know-best-ites", are going to let this one go ... I would guess
'done deal' as you say, in all but actual on the books legislation.

Arfa
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Arny Krueger"

10-4 good buddy!


** Oh - high the once high and mighty have fallen.

Arny is now a grinning, dribbling, pathetic caricature of his once proud
self.

Dementia is most cruel.





........ Phil
 
M

Mr.T

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
As I said Graham, your faith in a system of democracy that allows the small
man to have a say, is heartning even, but rather out of date I think.

By a couple of thousand years IMO. Democracy started and ended in ancient
Greece. Then quasi (representitive) democracy was invented, when they could
even be bothered with the pretence. Which wasn't all that often anyway.
We have not had democracy of that sort in the UK for at least the last 10
years

You think you did have it under Maggie Thatcher :)
But don't worry, The USA is worse under Bush, and so is Australia under
Howard.

MrT.
 
R

Richard Crowley

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Arfa Daily" wrote ...
As I said Graham, your faith in a system of democracy that allows the
small man to have a say, is heartning even, but rather out of date I
think. We have not had democracy of that sort in the UK for at least
the last 10 years ( ;~} ) and probably longer. How many people
marched on London opposing the invasion of Iraq ?

As a fraction of the actual voting public? Or do you
mean how many did it look like on TV (vs. the actual
numbers.) We have demonstrations all the time over
here in the Washington DC "Mall" where you can get
a couple hundred people together and if you are on the
right side of the issue (that is the "left side"), the "news"
purveyors will shoot and edit it to look like thousands
(or even hundreds of thousands if it is a slow news day.)
 
Phil:

Rather than pissing all over yourself in half-witted attempts to piss
on others, just do the math, all of it.

The basic premise is "Life-time Costs". I will not use your "most
common 60W incandescent" as my basis, but rather the 100W lamp as it
lends itself to round numbers. Otherwise things are much the same.

Assumptions:

a) there are two sorts of compact fluorescent lamps. Ballast-in and
Separate-Ballast, commonly known as CFL and PL respectively.
Personally, I prefer PL-types as one replaces only the lamp, not the
electronics. But for the sake of Phil's very limited understanding, I
will confine the argument to good-quality CFL-types.

b) I will ignore the Chinese-Junque mass-market crap just as I avoid
those same sources for incandescent lamps.

c) I will point to where I obtain my lamps, and the cost, and the
published service-life, mean-average lumens and so forth. My source
will, without question, accept and replace without cost any lamp that
fails within the specified lifetime. It is as convenient to me as any
other souce by accident of geography, but even accepting shipping
costs, the equation hardly changes. I am also ignoring quantity-
discounts as they apply equally to any lamp purchased of whatever
nature.

d) The cost of electricity from PECO at present at our location, RS-1
rate is ~$0.145/kwh, delivered. That is 1000 wats for one hour.

e) Tungsten-filament lamps are about 6% efficient (and that is being
generous as they age), so in 100 watts, 6 are emitted as visible
light, 94 as heat.

f) CLF/PL lamps are ~23% - ~26% efficient depending on ballast losses.
We will use 23% as it most favors Phil. So, that means a 28 watt CFL
will give as much visible light as a 100 watt tungsten-filament lamp.

g) We will ignore halogen lamps for any number of reasons, mostly
because excepting miniature LV reading-type lamps, they are not
commonly used for general lighting.

Here we go:

We purchase, in our house, either this:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1E563

or the "75-watt" version thereof. The specifications are given for
fair comparison to:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5V600

So. It will take sixteen (16) 100-watt lamps to equal one (1) CLF
lamp.

First-Cost CFL: 18.59
First Cost Inc.: 0.56 x 16 = $8.96

First-Cost of CFL is 2.075 x the cost of Inc.

12000 x 100/1000 x $0.145 = $174 This is the operational cost for
12000 hours of 100-watt incandescent lighting.

12000 x 28/1000 x 0.145 = $48.72 This is the cost of 12000 hours of
28-watt CFL lighting.

174 + 8.96 = $182.96 This is the Cost to purchase and operate
Incancescent lighting for 12000 hours.

48.72 + 16.59 = 65.31 This is the Cost to purchase and operate CFL
lighting for 12000 hours.

Purchase/operation: Incandescent lighting is 2.8 X more expensive than
CFL lighting.

Transport & disposal (life-cycle, costs, remember):

CLF Lamp = 4.8 ounces
16 100W incandescent lamps = 12.8 ounces.

Or, 2.67 x the impact on landfill by weight notwithstanding volume
which is much greater for incandescent lamps.

Mercury: http://www.mercurypolicy.org/emissions/documents/hgsources.pdf

Here in the US, most mercury comes from the burning of coal. It is
being controlled, but it does remain the major source. Hence, burning
electricity from coal releases mercury, irrespective of whether it is
burnt in Incandescent or CLF lamps. Less, of course with CFL lamps.
But the brute-fact-of-the-matter is that far more comes from the coal
than from the lamp if high-quality lamps are used. In Australia, the
coal may be slightly less in its mercury content than the
international average, but not 0.

http://www.csiro.au/resources/ps2ra.html

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1998/of98-772/

Bottom line.... more mercury is released from burning 1,200,000 watts
of power than exists in a GE 28-watt CFL.

Aside: Our township accepts fluorescent lamps of all types for
recycling at proper facilities, and at no "additional" cost to us. Our
taxes are enough!

So, Phil, were you to stop fulminating (pun intended) and start
thinking, you might actually learn something. I understand this is a
foreign concept to you...

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Arny Krueger"

10-4 good buddy!


** Oh - how the once high and mighty have fallen.

Arny is now a grinning, dribbling, pathetic caricature of his once proud
self.

Dementia is most cruel.

But the Good Lord knows who to punish.

Arny's days are all numbered.





........ Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
Peter Wieck = fuckwit YANK ****



** Just ignore the above totally autistic YANK psychopath.


The basic truths about CFLs are all documented here.

The public is being massively LIED to by all involved.

Much of the info on the page below is my material.


http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm




........ Phil
 
S

Serge Auckland

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil:

Rather than pissing all over yourself in half-witted attempts to piss
on others, just do the math, all of it.

The basic premise is "Life-time Costs". I will not use your "most
common 60W incandescent" as my basis, but rather the 100W lamp as it
lends itself to round numbers. Otherwise things are much the same.

Assumptions:

a) there are two sorts of compact fluorescent lamps. Ballast-in and
Separate-Ballast, commonly known as CFL and PL respectively.
Personally, I prefer PL-types as one replaces only the lamp, not the
electronics. But for the sake of Phil's very limited understanding, I
will confine the argument to good-quality CFL-types.

b) I will ignore the Chinese-Junque mass-market crap just as I avoid
those same sources for incandescent lamps.

c) I will point to where I obtain my lamps, and the cost, and the
published service-life, mean-average lumens and so forth. My source
will, without question, accept and replace without cost any lamp that
fails within the specified lifetime. It is as convenient to me as any
other souce by accident of geography, but even accepting shipping
costs, the equation hardly changes. I am also ignoring quantity-
discounts as they apply equally to any lamp purchased of whatever
nature.

d) The cost of electricity from PECO at present at our location, RS-1
rate is ~$0.145/kwh, delivered. That is 1000 wats for one hour.

e) Tungsten-filament lamps are about 6% efficient (and that is being
generous as they age), so in 100 watts, 6 are emitted as visible
light, 94 as heat.

f) CLF/PL lamps are ~23% - ~26% efficient depending on ballast losses.
We will use 23% as it most favors Phil. So, that means a 28 watt CFL
will give as much visible light as a 100 watt tungsten-filament lamp.

g) We will ignore halogen lamps for any number of reasons, mostly
because excepting miniature LV reading-type lamps, they are not
commonly used for general lighting.

Here we go:

We purchase, in our house, either this:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1E563

or the "75-watt" version thereof. The specifications are given for
fair comparison to:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5V600

So. It will take sixteen (16) 100-watt lamps to equal one (1) CLF
lamp.

First-Cost CFL: 18.59
First Cost Inc.: 0.56 x 16 = $8.96

First-Cost of CFL is 2.075 x the cost of Inc.

12000 x 100/1000 x $0.145 = $174 This is the operational cost for
12000 hours of 100-watt incandescent lighting.

12000 x 28/1000 x 0.145 = $48.72 This is the cost of 12000 hours of
28-watt CFL lighting.

174 + 8.96 = $182.96 This is the Cost to purchase and operate
Incancescent lighting for 12000 hours.

48.72 + 16.59 = 65.31 This is the Cost to purchase and operate CFL
lighting for 12000 hours.

Purchase/operation: Incandescent lighting is 2.8 X more expensive than
CFL lighting.

Transport & disposal (life-cycle, costs, remember):

CLF Lamp = 4.8 ounces
16 100W incandescent lamps = 12.8 ounces.

Or, 2.67 x the impact on landfill by weight notwithstanding volume
which is much greater for incandescent lamps.

Mercury: http://www.mercurypolicy.org/emissions/documents/hgsources.pdf

Here in the US, most mercury comes from the burning of coal. It is
being controlled, but it does remain the major source. Hence, burning
electricity from coal releases mercury, irrespective of whether it is
burnt in Incandescent or CLF lamps. Less, of course with CFL lamps.
But the brute-fact-of-the-matter is that far more comes from the coal
than from the lamp if high-quality lamps are used. In Australia, the
coal may be slightly less in its mercury content than the
international average, but not 0.

http://www.csiro.au/resources/ps2ra.html

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1998/of98-772/

Bottom line.... more mercury is released from burning 1,200,000 watts
of power than exists in a GE 28-watt CFL.

Aside: Our township accepts fluorescent lamps of all types for
recycling at proper facilities, and at no "additional" cost to us. Our
taxes are enough!

So, Phil, were you to stop fulminating (pun intended) and start
thinking, you might actually learn something. I understand this is a
foreign concept to you...

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Very interesting, thanks. Any idea how much energy is used in the
construction of CFLs compared with normal incandescents? I am particularly
interested in the end-to-end energy equation for these lamps. Also, any idea
how your calculations would be altered by the UK situation where most of our
power is generated from natural gas, or the French situation where some 80%
of their power is nuclear, and the rest hydro.

S.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard Crowley said:
"Arfa Daily" wrote ...


As a fraction of the actual voting public? Or do you
mean how many did it look like on TV (vs. the actual
numbers.) We have demonstrations all the time over
here in the Washington DC "Mall" where you can get
a couple hundred people together and if you are on the
right side of the issue (that is the "left side"), the "news"
purveyors will shoot and edit it to look like thousands
(or even hundreds of thousands if it is a slow news day.)


The conservative estimate (by the police) was 750,000 - see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

Now that's a big protest march in a country this size, by anyone's
definition. Over a million people signed the anti road pricing petition that
I mentioned. Again, that is a very substantial piece of the motoring public.
The day after that petition closed, the minister for transport, or whatever
he was, publicly declared that the petition was basically nonsense, because
the motoring public did not know what was good for them, and what was the
'right' thing to do, so they were going to go ahead with the pilot schemes,
regardless. Despite France and The Netherlands ( Holland ) returning a
resounding "No" vote to the establishing of a Europe-wide 'constitution',
which would seriously erode yet further, a country's right to govern itself,
and set its own laws and taxes, and which vote should have spelt an end to
further pressure on the member states, it is now being reintroduced by the
back door, in such a way that it will be very hard to knock on the head
again.

And to Mr T, the answer to whether we had more democracy under Mrs Thatcher,
from those of us who can remember her conservative government, the answer
has to be yes. At least I didn't feel like they were trying to run my entire
life for me, as this lot do ...

Arfa
 
Any idea how much energy is used in the
construction of CFLs compared with normal incandescents? I am particularly
interested in the end-to-end energy equation for these lamps. Also, any idea
how your calculations would be altered by the UK situation where most of our
power is generated from natural gas, or the French situation where some 80%
of their power is nuclear, and the rest hydro.

I can answer only for the US and those that are manufactured per GE
specs. Again, Chinese Junque not part of it:

a) Most of the energy involved is in the glass and glass forming. Per-
lamp, that is about equal as the process of making narrow-tube "folded-
fluorescents" has gotten exceedingly efficient.
b) A significant plurality of the copper used in the US is recycled,
as is aluminum. 16 lamps vs. 1 lamp with-ballast gives the cost-nod to
the CFL. Last I looked, CFL was about 13.8 the cost of incandescents
in manufacturing costs. If PL-types are considered, the equation skews
wildly in favor of the PL.
c) if you are burning NG, the cost-per-KWH will be higher than with
coal if you are measuring by market-price/BTU. If by "free" north-sea
gas, that would be different. There is mercury in every fossil-fuel
including from-the-well NG, but far less, of course. Today, tranport
makes a huge difference as well. Weight in these equations as volume
is more significant generally.
d) The French have enough guts to use Breeder Reactors and secondary
fuels to make power. Emissions must be counted vastly differently
accordingly. Pick your poison in other words.

Put more simply, the equation in favor of CFL/PL Lamps only obtains
over the total anticipated lifetime. It is wildly against Incandescent
lamps at the end, but it takes about 1/3 of the total life to get
there. The last 2/3 are free.

Now, a PL-type lamp typically has a 20,000 hour life, but one must
purchase a separate ballast. As it happens, many PL-type ballasts and
lamps may be dimmed as well. So, a 200% increase in Very-First-Cost
will give an additional 167% of service-life, and a much-reduced long-
term maintenance cost as the ballast is purchased only once... and it
may be dimmed.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
Peter Wieck = CRIMINAL fuckwit YANK ****



** Just ignore the above totally autistic YANK psychopath.


The basic truths about CFLs are all documented here.

The public is being massively LIED to by all involved.

Much of the info on the page below is my material.


http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm




........ Phil
 
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