Shill Bidding of Test Equipment on Eprey

[D from BC]

I'm still fairly new to Eprey (I call it that because it sometimes
looks sharky)

What I find suspicious is test equipment resellers bidding on test
equipment off of other test equipment resellers???

On
http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

"Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price
or apparent desirability. Shill Bidding is prohibited on eBay."

What if this happens..

Let's say 4 test equipment resellers from different areas get together
and agree on the values of their items.

Then they bid on each others items.
Let's say somebody 'outside the team' wins the bid.

Winning bit price - team agreed item value = profit

Profit/4 is paid to each member.

Example:

One team member has an item that can be sold for $1000.00 for good
profit.
All team members agree the price tag is $1000.00

Start bid: $100.00
Reseller 1: $200
Reseller 2: $300
Reseller 3: $800.00
Reseller 4: $1400.00
Reseller 2: $1600.00
Joe Smuck: $2000.00..winning bid

Item is sold and shipped.
The reseller that sold the item them gives $250.00 to each team
member.
The more the resellers push the price up...the more money they make
between them.

Question: Are there holes in my theory? Can something like this
happen?


If so.. I have more reason to call it Eprey.
D from BC

 

[Joel Koltner]

Question: Are there holes in my theory? Can something like this
happen?

Yes, it can happen -- it's not really different than any "cartel" operation.
The reason it probably doesn't happen more often is that as soon a group of
people try to artificially drive up the price of a given piece of equipment,
there's a temptation for each member to just start listing the same items at a
little bit less than the "artificial" price (using a separate ID, of course)
and keep ALL the profit. I.e., a cartel is inherently somewhat unstable --
the greed that brought them together initially also serves to draw them apart
once they're successful.

You don't need to get a bunch of resellers getting together to participate in
shill bidding -- the more common (I suspect) example is an individual seller
who just creates, say, dozen shill accounts and uses them to bid up his or her
own items. With effort, you can manage many shill accounts, have lots of
"fake" auctions to build up their feedback ratings, etc.

If so.. I have more reason to call it Eprey.

The best defense is to decide what you're willing to pay and try to stick to
it when you bid -- don't let the "excitement" of the last few minutes work
against you. Searching for completed auctions gives you some idea of the
going rate, although unfortunately eBay doesn't keep enough history to let you
see if perhaps there has been some concerted shilling effort to drive up the
average selling price.

---Joel

 

[Ecnerwal]

What I find suspicious is test equipment resellers bidding on test
equipment off of other test equipment resellers???

Not every reseller has a direct line to the motherlode of "surplus test
equipment from people that don't want fair market value for it", so they
are going to be on the lookout for things to fill their own stock, if
the price is right. They may also profit buy buying from the "untested,
as is" people and offer the same equipment tested, repaired if need be,
perhaps even calibrated, for a higher price. Perfectly acceptable.

Based on recent experience, I'm more leery of *B*y sellers who don't buy
than I am of *B*y sellers who also buy on *B*y, having had much better
transactions with the former than the latter, who presumably just sell
until they get a bad rating, and then change accounts...and avoid any
that are vague about shipping charges like the plague. Excessively high
shipping charges, even if disclosed, are also a mark of dubiousness.

Start bid: $100.00
Reseller 1: $200
Reseller 2: $300
Reseller 3: $800.00
Reseller 4: $1400.00
Reseller 2: $1600.00
Joe Smuck: $2000.00..winning bid

Well, Joe would only be paying the minimum bid increase over 1600, not
$2000. (what is it - 5% - so $1680?) And that's assuming that Joe didn't
drop out of the bidding at $799, $1399, or $1599. This would leave the
shill-ring at least liable for fees, which are not small on large-priced
items like this. It also requires that Mr. Schmuck has not researched
actual fair market value at $1000 or so and dropped out at that price,
leaving reseller 4 stuck with it at $1050 or so. "Auction fever" is a
stupid thing...don't get it. *B*y actively encourages you to suffer from
this mental illness. Set a price, stick to it, and bid late - or else
bid the opening price (or your maximum) and let the sucker go if anyone
else bids higher on it. It's not a "competition", and with test
equipment there will almost always be another several to choose from
within a month - if it's a rare enough item that that is not true, then
it is perhaps worth a higher price, if you actually need it. A serious
bargain without any strings (such as that whole untested, as is line) is
not going to be seen often, because regular dealers are going to see it
as below their price floor for being able to turn it around and sell it,
unless they already have lots of stock on hand.

 

[Winfield Hill]

I'm still fairly new to Eprey (I call it that because it
sometimes looks sharky)

What I find suspicious is test equipment resellers bidding
on test equipment off of other test equipment resellers???

I'm a serious eBay user, and over the last 10 years have
won thousands of expensive electronics instruments for
the Institute's use and for my EE Lab's use. I often
find myself bidding against dealers. The thing is, they
are very serious about winning good instruments for their
own sales inventory and often they do win the item.

If it's in good condition, and perhaps after calibration,
etc., they put it up for sale at a higher price. They're
very willing to sit back and wait for a corporate buyer,
etc., who's will to pay more for a guarantee on the item
and a P.O. with n/30 terms being accepted for payment.

I think this crowd does not take part in shilling, etc.,
they simply place a reserve price. After the auction
finishes the buyer can decide if he wants to meet the
reserve. Or he can negotiate a little discount. I've
done that many times. Often the seller will stand firm,
and the item gets relisted and may take months to sell.

 

[Bob Myers]

One team member has an item that can be sold for $1000.00 for good
profit.
All team members agree the price tag is $1000.00

Start bid: $100.00
Reseller 1: $200
Reseller 2: $300
Reseller 3: $800.00
Reseller 4: $1400.00
Reseller 2: $1600.00
Joe Smuck: $2000.00..winning bid

As others have already said - sure, it's possible, and
for various reasons it's unlikely. All I want to add to that
is to note that IF "Joe Schmuck" paid $2,000 for the
thing, then that IS what it was worth - TO HIM. You
seem to be suffering from the common delusion that "a
fair price" is something OTHER than what someone in
the market is willing to pay for a given item.

Bob M.

 

[D from BC]

Not every reseller has a direct line to the motherlode of "surplus test
equipment from people that don't want fair market value for it", so they
are going to be on the lookout for things to fill their own stock, if
the price is right. They may also profit buy buying from the "untested,
as is" people and offer the same equipment tested, repaired if need be,
perhaps even calibrated, for a higher price. Perfectly acceptable.

Based on recent experience, I'm more leery of *B*y sellers who don't buy
than I am of *B*y sellers who also buy on *B*y, having had much better
transactions with the former than the latter, who presumably just sell
until they get a bad rating, and then change accounts...and avoid any
that are vague about shipping charges like the plague. Excessively high
shipping charges, even if disclosed, are also a mark of dubiousness.


Well, Joe would only be paying the minimum bid increase over 1600, not
$2000. (what is it - 5% - so $1680?) And that's assuming that Joe didn't
drop out of the bidding at $799, $1399, or $1599. This would leave the
shill-ring at least liable for fees, which are not small on large-priced
items like this. It also requires that Mr. Schmuck has not researched
actual fair market value at $1000 or so and dropped out at that price,
leaving reseller 4 stuck with it at $1050 or so. "Auction fever" is a
stupid thing...don't get it. *B*y actively encourages you to suffer from
this mental illness. Set a price, stick to it, and bid late - or else
bid the opening price (or your maximum) and let the sucker go if anyone
else bids higher on it. It's not a "competition", and with test
equipment there will almost always be another several to choose from
within a month - if it's a rare enough item that that is not true, then
it is perhaps worth a higher price, if you actually need it. A serious
bargain without any strings (such as that whole untested, as is line) is
not going to be seen often, because regular dealers are going to see it
as below their price floor for being able to turn it around and sell it,
unless they already have lots of stock on hand.

Ahh... I haven't learned yet what fees sellers get when an item is
sold.


D from BC

 

[D from BC]

As others have already said - sure, it's possible, and
for various reasons it's unlikely. All I want to add to that
is to note that IF "Joe Schmuck" paid $2,000 for the
thing, then that IS what it was worth - TO HIM. You
seem to be suffering from the common delusion that "a
fair price" is something OTHER than what someone in
the market is willing to pay for a given item.

Bob M.

Say... $2000.00 was Joe Schmuck's max bid, then that's what he
believes is an affordable price.
But the resellers appraised the item at $1000.00.
Joe got shilled to paying his max bid of $2000.00.. Without shilling,
he could have paid $1000.00

I believe in figuring out how much an oscilloscope drops in price due
to age, obsolescence, lack of support and risk of bugs.


D from BC

 

[David L. Jones]

Say... $2000.00 was Joe Schmuck's max bid, then that's what he
believes is an affordable price.
But the resellers appraised the item at $1000.00.
Joe got shilled to paying his max bid of $2000.00.. Without shilling,
he could have paid $1000.00

You forget that both the sellers and other bidders have no way of
knowing what Joe's maximum bid is. If they try and push the price up
with fake bidding then they run the risk of exceeding Joe's max bid
and not finding a real buyer and having to pay the final sellers fee
for nothing (plus a re-list fee). The seller can falsely claim that
the buyer did not pay, and get their final value fee refunded, but you
can't do that too many times before being busted.

Dave.

 

[D from BC]

You forget that both the sellers and other bidders have no way of
knowing what Joe's maximum bid is. If they try and push the price up
with fake bidding then they run the risk of exceeding Joe's max bid
and not finding a real buyer and having to pay the final sellers fee
for nothing (plus a re-list fee). The seller can falsely claim that
the buyer did not pay, and get their final value fee refunded, but you
can't do that too many times before being busted.

Dave.

Ahhhh...If I were a seller, then I'd know these things..
At the moment, I just lurk on Epray waiting for that irresistible
price below my max bid.
I'm Epraying not to be Eprey


D from BC

 

[David L. Jones]

Ahhhh...If I were a seller, then I'd know these things..
At the moment, I just lurk on Epray waiting for that irresistible
price below my max bid.
I'm Epraying not to be Eprey

With eBay you have to know what something is worth, otherwise you'll
pay more than you have to. Those that get caught in the "bidding
frenzy" are just fools.

I have shamelessly resold stuff on eBay for 3 times the price I paid
for it on eBay, there is a sucker born every minute. I often buy stuff
on eBay, use it for a while, and then resell it on eBay, almost always
at a profit. For example, I bought a tiny sub-notebook to take on a
world trip, used it for a few months and then resold it (complete with
extra wear'n'tear) for $300 more than what I paid for it when I got
back.

Aso, a lot of eBayers don't trust buying products from overseas, so in
countries like Australia it's possible to buy something on eBay from
the US or Asia and then resell it for double or triple the money on
the Australian eBay site.

Then you have people buying all these brand new consumer products on
eBay for more than what you can buy it for in the local shop. e.g. I
just got a new mobile phone from my local Dick Smith Electronics
store, and the exact same phones were walking out the door on eBay for
$100 more - crazy. It took about a month of "lag" until the eBay price
came down closer to the reduced price the local shops were now selling
it for.
DVD's are another classic product like this, I've seen them go for
$25+postage on eBay when the exact same title has been in the $10 bin
at the department stores for months.

It's a wild world.

Dave.

 

[Bob Myers]

Say... $2000.00 was Joe Schmuck's max bid, then that's what he
believes is an affordable price.
But the resellers appraised the item at $1000.00.
Joe got shilled to paying his max bid of $2000.00.. Without shilling,
he could have paid $1000.00

Yup. But if Joe IS willing to spend $2000 for the item,
then it IS worth that much to him by definition. An
appraisal is always just an estimate of what a given item
will bring on the current market - that doesn't mean that
the seller can't, or shouldn't, get a higher price if there's
a customer out there willing to pay it.

Bob M.

 

[Bob Myers]

With eBay you have to know what something is worth, otherwise you'll
pay more than you have to. Those that get caught in the "bidding
frenzy" are just fools.

My point was that THERE IS NO SUCH THING as
a single, fixed number that "is" what an item is worth.
Value, and therefore price, is ALWAYS set by what
the customer, or more broadly the market in general, is
willing to pay for a given item or service.

Suppose I have an item that I would be willing to accept
$100 for. I receive two offers on this item - yours, which
is for $110, and someone else's, which is for $200. Would
anyone claim that I have an obligation not only to accept your
offer, but also perhaps to tell you that you're $10 over and
I'll only take $100 of your money?

Bob M.

 

[David L. Jones]

My point was that THERE IS NO SUCH THING as
a single, fixed number that "is" what an item is worth.
Value, and therefore price, is ALWAYS set by what
the customer, or more broadly the market in general, is
willing to pay for a given item or service.

I agree.

Suppose I have an item that I would be willing to accept
$100 for. I receive two offers on this item - yours, which
is for $110, and someone else's, which is for $200. Would
anyone claim that I have an obligation not only to accept your
offer, but also perhaps to tell you that you're $10 over and
I'll only take $100 of your money?

No, of course not, that's not what I meant.

I'm talking about those who get carried away on eBay thinking they are
getting a bargain, and end up paying more for an item than you can get
it for elsewhere. This usually happens with new items as I mentioned.
Less so with 2nd hand items because they may not be readily available
elsewhere, and people will usually pay what they have to to get it.

Dave.

 

[D from BC]

I agree.


No, of course not, that's not what I meant.

I'm talking about those who get carried away on eBay thinking they are
getting a bargain, and end up paying more for an item than you can get
it for elsewhere. This usually happens with new items as I mentioned.
Less so with 2nd hand items because they may not be readily available
elsewhere, and people will usually pay what they have to to get it.

Dave.

I suspect some people assume everything is a bargain on Ebay just
because..it's Ebay..
Ebay = bargain

...... Not always!

After 'scoping out' oscilloscopes on Ebay for about a month, I'd guess
that only 20% of oscilloscopes are 'awesome deals'.
The rest is fool fishing, junk or just too dubious.

What I find boggling is to see 12 year old DSO's selling for more than
nearly equivalent new asian DSO's??


D from BC

 

[D from BC]

Yup. But if Joe IS willing to spend $2000 for the item,
then it IS worth that much to him by definition. An
appraisal is always just an estimate of what a given item
will bring on the current market - that doesn't mean that
the seller can't, or shouldn't, get a higher price if there's
a customer out there willing to pay it.

Bob M.

I think I have all the scenarios....

For a $1000 item (assume average resale price over a 1 year period)

1) Joe Schmuck is happy to win the bid at $2000. He feels this is a
worthy amount and he can afford to bid this high.
The item is worth that much to him.

2) Joe Schmuck is happier by not getting shilled and only paid
$1000.00 using a max bid of $2000.00.

3) Joe Schmuck did his homework, only bid $1000.00, got outbid by
shillers and didn't win the item.


D from BC

 

[D from BC]

With eBay you have to know what something is worth, otherwise you'll
pay more than you have to. Those that get caught in the "bidding
frenzy" are just fools.

I have shamelessly resold stuff on eBay for 3 times the price I paid
for it on eBay, there is a sucker born every minute. I often buy stuff
on eBay, use it for a while, and then resell it on eBay, almost always
at a profit. For example, I bought a tiny sub-notebook to take on a
world trip, used it for a few months and then resold it (complete with
extra wear'n'tear) for $300 more than what I paid for it when I got
back.

Aso, a lot of eBayers don't trust buying products from overseas, so in
countries like Australia it's possible to buy something on eBay from
the US or Asia and then resell it for double or triple the money on
the Australian eBay site.

Then you have people buying all these brand new consumer products on
eBay for more than what you can buy it for in the local shop. e.g. I
just got a new mobile phone from my local Dick Smith Electronics
store, and the exact same phones were walking out the door on eBay for
$100 more - crazy. It took about a month of "lag" until the eBay price
came down closer to the reduced price the local shops were now selling
it for.
DVD's are another classic product like this, I've seen them go for
$25+postage on eBay when the exact same title has been in the $10 bin
at the department stores for months.

It's a wild world.

Dave.

Just shocking!


D from BC

 

[Ecnerwal]

After 'scoping out' oscilloscopes on Ebay for about a month, I'd guess
that only 20% of oscilloscopes are 'awesome deals'.
The rest is fool fishing, junk or just too dubious.

So - there are deals, just ignore the 4 out of 5 that are not deals. I
don't need a better scope that badly, so the price I'm willing to pay is
low, and the performance increment I want for that price is high (else,
the old one is fine) so nothing has hit my personal bargain-meter.
Eventually, there will either come a slow week in oscilloscope sales
when I'm actually looking, and I'll get a deal I can stand, or I'll
decide I want one a bit harder and raise my price.

Unless you're planning on becoming a dealer, you only need one deal
(either 'awesome' or 'acceptable') per item you are looking for - then
you can move on and look for something else, if you need anything else,
or ignore the B*y for a good long while if you don't need anything (thus
reducing the odds that you will engage in buying crap you don't need).

What I find boggling is to see 12 year old DSO's selling for more than
nearly equivalent new asian DSO's??

Depends how much you trust Chinese electronics. The 12 year old scope
may well last longer (from now) than the shiny new one, have better
support, be better engineered overall, exceed its specs rather than
wildly failing to approach meeting them, etc.

There's more to shoddy work than lead paint on children's toys and
poisons in pet food. When you buy Calgary brand oscilloscope this year,
and next year there's no record of the company, but something similar,
yet with non-interchangeable parts is being sold by Banff brand, you are
clearly not dealing with anything other than a "dispose when breaks"
level of service/support. If you're really dense, you think you're
getting something from Alberta.

A 12-30+ year old major-brand scope (especially a popular model) is
going to have repair parts available, from *B*y people scrapping out
other ones (or old repair inventories) if/when not from the OEM.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

I'm a serious eBay user, and over the last 10 years have
won thousands of expensive electronics instruments for
the Institute's use and for my EE Lab's use. I often
find myself bidding against dealers. The thing is, they
are very serious about winning good instruments for their
own sales inventory and often they do win the item.

If it's in good condition, and perhaps after calibration,
etc., they put it up for sale at a higher price. They're
very willing to sit back and wait for a corporate buyer,
etc., who's will to pay more for a guarantee on the item
and a P.O. with n/30 terms being accepted for payment.

I think this crowd does not take part in shilling, etc.,
they simply place a reserve price. After the auction
finishes the buyer can decide if he wants to meet the
reserve. Or he can negotiate a little discount. I've
done that many times. Often the seller will stand firm,
and the item gets relisted and may take months to sell.

Right, and you can look up the buying history of the other bidders, size
them up, and plan a bid strategy based on that. Under no circumstances
would you place a bid in excess of your objective assessment of the
worth of the item.