Sustainable Agriculture.

[Mary Fisher]

The message <[email protected]>
from Day Brown <[email protected]> contains these words:


The wonderful Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall and
Lord of the Isles, who lives on his own particularly small planet that
is inhabited by himself and a few sycophants firmly believes in what he
calls organic agriculture.

Don't be silly, Stubbsy, it doesn't become you.

He has men crawling on all-fours weeding his crops.

No he doesn't.

Fine, if he can
afford it, which he can

His products are sold, it's a commercial business. Profits go to The
Prince's Trust, which has helped two of our children and very many others we
know to start their own businesses.

But in the real world a farm of 250 acres now
employs one or two men if it is arable. The days when that farm
supported 25 men were over after the First World War.

Which is a pity.

Our delightfully mad Prince

He is not mad.

feels that it can still be done, ingnoring
the fact that most people feed themselves out of the supermarkets,

The Prince's products (Duchy Originals) are sold in all supermarkets.

which organisations force producers to cut costs to the bone.

Only those which allow it.

Growing stuff without pesticides and fungicides and artificial
fertilisers is great.
That is what Mrs. Stubbs and I do for our food. But we are very lucky
in that we have some land which we can devote to supplying the kitchen
with food.

Most people live in cities and have to get their food from the store,

Not so. I live in inner city, Leeds, with a small back garden and we grow
most of our own vegetables and fruit, along with a couple of banties which
provide eggs. If we can do it so could all the other people who live in
similar houses, which are the bulk of the housing stock in England.

and they want the stuff cheap.

Aye, that's it. But people don't realise how expensive such 'cheap' food
really is. Those of us who do don't buy 'cheap' food - and there are plenty
of us.

It cannot be done organically now. The
manpower simply is not there.

It could be if people were prepared to work.

There are not enough Wetbacks or Eastern
Europeans.

That's offensive - bit it's what I'd expect from you, sadly.

Mary

 

[Anthony Matonak]

Microwave ovens were invented in the 50s, but they weren't adopted until the
'80s, because it took that long for all the myths to be replaced by fact.

According to this site (http://www.gallawa.com/microtech/history.html)
the first microwave oven was sold in 1947, stood 5.5 feet tall, weighed
750 pounds, cost $5,000 and required water cooling.

Microwave ovens weren't widely adopted until the '70s because it took
that long to make them affordable for the average mortal.

Anthony

 

[Robert Sturgeon]

http://www.science.siu.edu/plant-biology/PLB425/Lit_files/extra_reading/Welch 2002 human nutr.pdf

Did you READ that? Nowhere in it does it state that
"organic" farming produces crops with more nutrition. In
fact, it calls for MORE modern farming practices, not less,
including using highly sophisticated fertility additives.
It does mention that using manure as a fertilizer can
improve soil structure and uptake of micronutrients. BFD.
We already know that. (It's one of the reasons many of us
use a LOT of chicken manure as fertilizer.) Nowhere does it
suggest, even remotely, that we would get better food by
abandoning modern farming practices. Instead, it calls for
even MORE of a modern approach to farming -- not a return to
"nature."

 

[Robert Sturgeon]

Kharma being what it is, Robert prolly wont see this. But thanx anyway.
Altho, I hate .pdf; an html link would be gonzo easier to deal with.

Of course I saw it, and read it. It does NOT say anything
remotely like "organic farm products have more nutrition in
them than conventionally grown farm products." Better luck
next time.

The other thing to consider is that while I am not a gourmet, I know
those who are, who tell me that they *can* taste the diff in organic
produce. But even so, I know from personal experience, that my own straw
berries taste gonzo better than what's for sale at Safeway. Granted that
they are smaller, but a quart is still a quart.

Your strawberries taste better because they are fresher.
"Organic" produce bought at the grocery store often tastes
better -- because it is grown locally and allowed to ripen
before picking. That better taste is NOT because it's
"organic," but because it is fresher and vine-ripened. You
can test this yourself by growing some garden produce
"organically" and some using synthetic fertilizers and
pesticides (always follow the label), and letting someone
else pick some of each and feed it to you without telling
you which is which. You will NOT be able to tell the
difference. OK, maybe you will be able to tell the
difference, because your "organic" produce will probably be
smaller and have more pest damage. Better make that a TRUE
"blind" taste test.

Then too, there are changes in the palette. 40 years ago, I had a friend
who was a biochemist for Pillsbury. She would *not* eat what came in a
Pillsbury box. I myself used to work summers in the canning factories in
the Valley of the Jolly Green Giant, and you do *not* want to know what
gets into a can of corn. My family grew a lot of their corn, but nobody
eats it. I also quit buying Wonder bread, aware that it wasnt at all
like what I ate down home on the farm.

Corporations were setup to avoid the moral reponsiblity for what gets
done by the people doing it. The family farmer is different; if his kids
eat it, I know my kids can. I'm not some kind of enviro idealist; some
hog waste or chicken litter on a field, mixed in with crop residue and
other onsite farm sources is going to biodegrade to safe levels the next
year for a healthy crop. All I do is look at the dirt; if there's earth
worms in it, I dont worry about the plants that grow in it.

100% organic may not be economically feasible, but we can do better by
people and their kids in an economically sustainable way.

Yes, by doing an even better job of farming using modern
methods. "Organic" is a fraud, a cultish bunch of nonsense
that cons people into paying more for inferior products.

 

[JoeSP]

Ice cubes aren't necessary, I don't use them.

And what you believe aren't myths, of course ...

These aren't scientific theories, up for peer review. They are simply good
examples of how history judges us foolish or wise over time.

Instead of parroting, "evidence, evidence" consider the evidence yourself.
Why is the myth so readily adopted, and the fact so reluctantly so? Isn't it
our human weakness to choose what we wish to believe over what logic tells
us we must believe? Isn't it better in the long run to examine the facts
rationally instead of emotionally?

 

[JoeSP]

Did you READ that? Nowhere in it does it state that
"organic" farming produces crops with more nutrition. In
fact, it calls for MORE modern farming practices, not less,
including using highly sophisticated fertility additives.
It does mention that using manure as a fertilizer can
improve soil structure and uptake of micronutrients. BFD.
We already know that. (It's one of the reasons many of us
use a LOT of chicken manure as fertilizer.) Nowhere does it
suggest, even remotely, that we would get better food by
abandoning modern farming practices. Instead, it calls for
even MORE of a modern approach to farming -- not a return to
"nature."

Of course it doesn't mention organic farming, it merely shows that modern,
industrialized agriculture produces food containing far fewer trace minerals
than we had in the past, when we used to recycle the nutrients back to the
land with human and animal wastes. But it goes without saying that if food
were produced organically, the nutrients would have to come from animal and
human wastes in lieu of chemical fertilizer. Is any of this making sense to
you?

You asked for a citation, which you got. It doesn't mean it's not valid
because it doesn't fit your narrow definitions of organic farming.

 

[Derek Broughton]

On Thu, 18 May 2006 22:52:05 -0500, Day Brown


Yes, by doing an even better job of farming using modern
methods. "Organic" is a fraud, a cultish bunch of nonsense
that cons people into paying more for inferior products.

Ah. You had me right up to that point. I agree with everything you
_argued_, then you throw that silliness into it. Though you can make food
with the same nutritional value either way; much of what is not allowed
in "organic" farming is indistinguishable from that used in "inorganic"
farming; and, some "organic" practices are as hazardous as "inorganic"
practices (specifically, I'm thinking of the use of untreated human
waste) - that still doesn't mean that "organic" as a whole is a fraud.
People have valid concerns about pesticide residues, for instance.

 

[Mary Fisher]

These aren't scientific theories, up for peer review.

Then you shouldn't state them as though they are.,

Instead of parroting, "evidence, evidence" consider the evidence
yourself.

You haven't provided any to back up your statements.

Why is the myth so readily adopted, and the fact so reluctantly so?

I'll believe something which is proved to be a fact. Opinion doesn't count.

 

[Mary Fisher]

According to this site (http://www.gallawa.com/microtech/history.html)
the first microwave oven was sold in 1947, stood 5.5 feet tall, weighed
750 pounds, cost $5,000 and required water cooling.

Microwave ovens weren't widely adopted until the '70s because it took
that long to make them affordable for the average mortal.

I can believe that but I still don't have one even through they're
incredibly cheap.

I've never felt the need for one, I prefer real cooking for my real food.

Mary

 

[Mary Fisher]

Ah. You had me right up to that point. I agree with everything you
_argued_, then you throw that silliness into it. Though you can make food
with the same nutritional value either way; much of what is not allowed
in "organic" farming is indistinguishable from that used in "inorganic"
farming; and, some "organic" practices are as hazardous as "inorganic"
practices (specifically, I'm thinking of the use of untreated human
waste) - that still doesn't mean that "organic" as a whole is a fraud.
People have valid concerns about pesticide residues, for instance.

Well, Derek, You had me up to the point you talked about using untreated
human waste.

I've not heard of that being done but if it were what would be the problem?

Mary
Bet mine are uglier! And they're certainly tasty - but we only have tomatoes
in season of course. It's a very hard life

 

[Abraham Evangelista]

I think eel's over-rated. I've never eated the three others. Can you smoke
them?

The squid at least I've had smoked. Never tried cuttlefish or octopus
smoked. FWIW, I usually use cuttlefish as a "throw-in" for soups.
Goes a long way towards making cheap cup ramen resemble something
edible.

Mary

 

[Derek Broughton]

Well, Derek, You had me up to the point you talked about using untreated
human waste.

It's _not_ something that is acceptable practice in Canada, the US and
probably Europe, but it is strictly "organic".

I've not heard of that being done but if it were what would be the
problem?

It's been the attributed (I don't know if it's actually proven) cause of a
number of E. Coli infections of vegetables imported to Canada and the US
from Mexico.

Bet mine are uglier! And they're certainly tasty - but we only have
tomatoes in season of course. It's a very hard life

I was listening to a piece about "The World's Ugliest Dog" contest, in
Petaluma, California, last night. Maybe we need a "world's ugliest Tomato"
contest. Of course, the dogs are available year round - it'll be a few
months before I can provide evidence of the ugliness of ours

 

[sonny Power]

Years ago, I had an agreement with the local health food store to sell my
"farm fresh" chicken eggs. I did not market them as organic, but rather
"range fed". One day the anti-Christ devil worshiping Health Department
Inspecter went into the health food store and ask the owner if the eggs were
in fact the same brand as indicated on the carton, which they were not as I
re-used cartons. The government guy told the health food store owner that
it was illegal to sell good quality eggs without the government getting a
piece of the action, and said he would have to come out here and check my
chickens pussies. I told them both to f off and die.
As for store bought food, I worked in a Del Monte plant when I was younger
and I was the only one outside of management that spoke English. I was in a
2-story barrel that received chopped cabbage from above. My job was to
spread the cabbage around and stomp on it till the barrel was full and then
they cover it and let it ferment. After a couple hours I had to go to the
bathroom so I climbed out on the ladder and walked about 350 feet to the
closest restroom. I wonder if the other people walked that far to relieve
themselves or if that is "natural flavoring" to sour krout?
I say Close the borders and shoot to kill all aliens crossing. Bullets are
only 25 cents each and that is the end of it. Let the buzzards eat the
corpse and there is no deportation or incarceration cost.

Floyd
http://witchwellweb.com

 

[zatoichi]

Your strawberries taste better because they are fresher.
"Organic" produce bought at the grocery store often tastes
better -- because it is grown locally and allowed to ripen
before picking. That better taste is NOT because it's
"organic," but because it is fresher and vine-ripened.

I can't believe what you just said.Has someone cut your tongue and
ears and picked your eyes and forgot to tell you about it?
No? Then WTF? You really believe yourself when you say that
synthetic genetically mutated pesticide screwed jelly excuse for
strawberries has something in common with the with strawberries you
have had when you were kid?Hell then my forest strawberries would
probably make you loose consciousness.You people have been eating that
same tasteless food for so long,that now it doesn't even taste so bad.
I am sorry if I am being rude,but after hearing this nonsense I am so
pissed of right now
Can't believe that you are being duped so successfully that you forgot
how the food used to taste.Ooh,how can this be?

Sometimes I don't even bother with say that fucked up scam for salad
you call tomatoes.They just screw up entire meal.I don't care what yo
gonna do with these tomatoes.You can cook them,you can broil them,you
can grill them,Jamie fucking Oliver can sprinkle them for you with
Acceto balsamico di fucking Modena,*and* they still gonna taste like
some no good jelly shit.OTOH when I manage to get some of that real
farm tomatoes shit,I don't even bother with rest of the meal.A little
bit of feta cheese,olive oil,few capers and there you go man,enjoy.Or
you just eat it like you eat an apple.What ever you do with them,you
can't really go wrong.

You
can test this yourself by growing some garden produce
"organically" and some using synthetic fertilizers and
pesticides (always follow the label), and letting someone
else pick some of each and feed it to you without telling
you which is which.

No you can't.You really expect that from fucked up soil,from fucked up
GM seeds,grown on the fucked up air,with fucked up GM and fertilizer
procedures,you gonna pick the same tomato like your or my granddad did?
Now I *don't* know what or when went wrong.I am just seeing net effect
of it..Besides,being a farmer you can hardly be neutral in this whole
matter.I am not saying that you should as this touches life of you and
your family very directly.Just don't tell me this "you won't know
which is which" shit.

 

[Mary Fisher]

The squid at least I've had smoked. Never tried cuttlefish or octopus
smoked. FWIW, I usually use cuttlefish as a "throw-in" for soups.
Goes a long way towards making cheap cup ramen resemble something
edible.

What's ramen?

Mary

 

[Mary Fisher]

Years ago, I had an agreement with the local health food store to sell my
"farm fresh" chicken eggs. I did not market them as organic, but rather
"range fed". One day the anti-Christ devil worshiping Health Department
Inspecter went into the health food store and ask the owner if the eggs
were in fact the same brand as indicated on the carton, which they were
not as I re-used cartons. The government guy told the health food store
owner that it was illegal to sell good quality eggs without the government
getting a piece of the action, and said he would have to come out here and
check my chickens pussies. I told them both to f off and die.

Bound to get a sympathetic response!

Mary

 

[JoeSP]

Then you shouldn't state them as though they are.,


You haven't provided any to back up your statements.


I'll believe something which is proved to be a fact. Opinion doesn't
count.

Science doesn't work that way. You can't pick and choose which facts support
your opinions. You can't hold a double standard for accountability, where
yours are true until disproven, and the others are false until proven.

 

[Day Brown]

Maybe Robert is not a gourmet, and cant taste the difference. Be that as
it may, the world is full of gourmets who think they can, and
increasingly full of people who are concerned about the chemicals in
their food, having read what some exploited, non-caring workers have
done while processing food they know they wont eat nor feed to their own
kids.

But when push comes to shove, it'll be the communities that have the
healthiest and smartest next generation that will be able to compete in
the global market, and those that have too many on the dole cause their
brains dont work right that will be fucked.

And the question is, what is that economic opportunity, to increase the
number of creative innovative young workers going to be worth, and what
will the community pay the people who grow their own food to increase
the odds of their children's success?

Maybe Robert dont have kids, and it aint his problem. That is, it wont
be, until he wants to retire and sell out at a good price. Which there
wont be if there is a shortage of competent people to run the operation.
Which, to hear the personnel managers talk about it, there already is.

I grant that there are a lotta links out there that say that there is no
nutritional diff with organic food. But more recently, there have been
studies of the interactions between micro-nutrients (which were unknown,
or ignored when the organic studies debunking studies were done), and
some of the 150+ neuro-transmitters so far identified. Only a few years
ago, when the debunking studies were done, there were only 7 identified
neurotransmitters, a standard that had been in place so long people thot
it was gospel. I just read of 350 DNA markers that have been identified
so far which were all unknown factors when the organic debunking was
done, but now dieticians and health professionals realize there are risk
factors related to agribusiness and other chemicals that in turn relate
to the rise of autism, ADD, ADHD, and Ritalin prescriptions.

To say that do gooders have stepped in and put names on behavior kids
have always had, giving them an excuse to be non-functional misses the
point that we will *need* them in the workforce, and need to try every
rememdy we can think of, including organic diets. One of the reasons the
Founding Fathers wanted the states so that different things could be
tried. So- all right. Look at California and New York which formerly had
the best schools in the nation, and track the agribusiness petrochemical
consumption and the displacement of family farms, and then compare that
with the schools in places like West Virgina and Arkansas hill country
that still has lots of family farmers and no agibusiness to pollute the
area with crop dusters or whatever.

These family farms didnt set out to be organic; they were just too poor
to be taken advantage of by banks, petrochemical suppliers, equipment
dealers, hybrid or GM seed outfits. I dont recall hillbillies as ever
being regarded as all that smart, but they score better now than the
kids in the suburban schools. The hillbilly kids never had the money, so
they never put the junkfood/sodapop vending machines in the schools. the
folks at home still have gardens, so the kids eat more turnip greens
than ice cream.

Then too, you can look at the scores where there are mine tailings in
the water or crop dusters in the air... and compare that with the AR
Ozarks which have neither. The epidemiological *data* is compelling.

 

[Gerald L R Stubbs]

The message <[email protected]>

I think eel's over-rated. I've never eated the three others. Can you smoke
them?

Smoked eel is almost the best thing one could eat. Mussels are not
smoked as they want to be eaten absolutely fresh. Oysters do smoke,
but in my opinion they are best not mucked about with as they are so
good that way.

 

[Mary Fisher]

Science doesn't work that way. You can't pick and choose which facts
support your opinions.

But that's what you're doing - and your 'facts' are only those which you say
are facts, you're not willing to support them with objective data.