The One and Only Quantum of Heat

  • Thread starter Anomaly Magnetism
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F

Fred B. McGalliard

Jan 1, 1970
0
I would be a bit more careful. Empty space, (or the thin plasma that passes
for empty space here abouts), doesn't have a nice polite temperature, but
heat sure as heck leaves through it at night, and arrives through it in the
daytime. I would say heat travels through space well enough. It just has to
move to radiation to do it. I have yet to figure out just how one would
define a single temperature for a vacuum in any consistent manner, but the
physics is straight enough.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred B. McGalliard said:
I would be a bit more careful. Empty space, (or the thin plasma that passes
for empty space here abouts), doesn't have a nice polite temperature, but
heat sure as heck leaves through it at night, and arrives through it in the
daytime. I would say heat travels through space well enough. It just has to
move to radiation to do it. I have yet to figure out just how one would
define a single temperature for a vacuum in any consistent manner, but the
physics is straight enough.


Well, I would say 'energy' travels through empty space. The fact that such
energy *often* is converted to 'heat' (molecular kinetic energy) when it
interacts with matter is true. But *not* always. Some e-m radiant energy
can be converted to chemical energy directly. (photosynthesis comes to
mind). Or in a PV cell to another form of electrical energy.

The fact that e-m radiation *often* is converted to heat, doesn't mean they
are the same thing, any more than the kinetic energy of a car (often
converted to heat through brakes and turbulance) is heat.

daestrom
 
F

Fred B. McGalliard

Jan 1, 1970
0
....
Well, I would say 'energy' travels through empty space.

The question you have to ask is whether there is a sensible "temperature".
Sitting in the hot sun, it would be nice to have a temperature to attribute
to the discomfort, eh? As I said, the physics is easy, but finding a
definition of the sensibility of "hot" may be a bit more complex. Perhaps it
just doesn't work. If you refuse to include radiant energy as heat, then
most of the heat transfer phenomena that require radiation to be included
are not longer simply classified as heat transfer, in spite of the
sensibility that hot moved from here to there. I think the question is not
the physics, which doesn't care whether you call radiant energy heat or not,
but the human propensity to simplify the problem and model it in terms of
common experience. It would be desirable if heat transfers could be
associated with a form of heat, just to make it clear and match our senses.
Not necessary, but nice.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred B. McGalliard said:
...

The question you have to ask is whether there is a sensible "temperature".

There can be no 'temperature' unless you have matter. Then you have e-m
radiation interacting with matter.

One of the falacies of the lay person is in describing how 'cold' space is.
Except for the very sparce particles, there isn't any matter to 'have' a
temperature. But put any *thing* in space and its temperature will be
driven towards the point where radiant input matches radiant output. So in
the shadow of the earth, energy input is small and the *thing* loses energy
until its radiant output matches the small radiant input. This doesn't
happen until its temperature is low. And conversely, when exposed to full
sunlight, its temperature rises until it radiates the same amount of energy
out as it absorbs.
If you refuse to include radiant energy as heat, then
most of the heat transfer phenomena that require radiation to be included
are not longer simply classified as heat transfer, in spite of the
sensibility that hot moved from here to there. I think the question is not
the physics, which doesn't care whether you call radiant energy heat or not,
but the human propensity to simplify the problem and model it in terms of
common experience. It would be desirable if heat transfers could be
associated with a form of heat, just to make it clear and match our senses.
Not necessary, but nice.

People talk of converting potential energy to kinetic and back again by
working in a gravitational field all the time. It isn't that much to talk
about converting molecular kinetic energy ('heat') into e-m energy and back
again.

It is true that thermal radiation is discussed with conduction and
convection in many texts. It is, after all, a fundemental way that objects
gain/lose heat. Just as 'friction' is a fundemental way objects lose
kinetic energy. You don't see people trying to call the energy transfered
from a rotating shaft to a stationary bearing, 'kinetic energy'. We say the
kinetic energy is transformed into another form (heat).

The fact that every piece of matter (above absolute zero) radiates e-m
radiation doesn't make e-m radiation 'heat'. Not anymore than the fact that
anything suspended above the floor means potential energy is kinetic because
it can easily be converted (let the object fall).

Infra-red 'radiant heaters' simply radiate a lot of energy towards whatever
it is aimed at. If the object is highly reflective to the IR, it doesn't
really get hot. A perfect example is the reflector mounted on the back of
many such heaters. Only when the radiated e-m is absorbed by an object is
it converted to heat.

Ah, well, I suppose to most it's just symantics. It is a subtlty that can
be 'glossed over' most of the time with little loss in accuracy.

daestrom
 
R

Repeating Decimal

Jan 1, 1970
0
There can be no 'temperature' unless you have matter. Then you have e-m
radiation interacting with matter.

One of the falacies of the lay person is in describing how 'cold' space is.
Except for the very sparce particles, there isn't any matter to 'have' a
temperature. But put any *thing* in space and its temperature will be
driven towards the point where radiant input matches radiant output. So in
the shadow of the earth, energy input is small and the *thing* loses energy
until its radiant output matches the small radiant input. This doesn't
happen until its temperature is low. And conversely, when exposed to full
sunlight, its temperature rises until it radiates the same amount of energy
out as it absorbs.

You do not need material particles. For example, a perfectly conducting (I
know that is an approximation) cavity can contain a gas of photons with a
temperature.

Bill
 
A

AES/newspost

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
There can be no 'temperature' unless you have matter.

Radiation -- specifically blackbody radiation -- can absolutely have a
totally meaningful and physically significant temperature.

The temperature of the radiation in a region of "empty" space will come
to thermal equilibrium -- or at least, move toward thermal equilibrium
--with the temperature(s) of the matter that surrounds the region, or
with which the region interactions.
 
A

Anomaly Magnetism

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
There can be no 'temperature' unless you have matter. Then you have e-m
radiation interacting with matter.

It is important to understand that heat and temperature and two
*totally* different things.
 
R

Repeating Decimal

Jan 1, 1970
0
Radiation -- specifically blackbody radiation -- can absolutely have a
totally meaningful and physically significant temperature.

The temperature of the radiation in a region of "empty" space will come
to thermal equilibrium -- or at least, move toward thermal equilibrium
--with the temperature(s) of the matter that surrounds the region, or
with which the region interactions.

In an old classic text by Kennard and Rictmeyer, a gas of photons is used as
the working fluid in an engine. The cylinder is made of perfectly reflecting
material. It is shown how by doppler shifting off of the moving piston, the
black body character of the photons is maintained. The temperature, however,
changes according to the work injected or extracted by the piston.

Bill
 
R

Repeating Decimal

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] (George Wilkie) wrote in message


Temperature doesn't. Heat does.

Folrget the heat! it is energy that transfers through empty space. In the
enc, except for understanding the process, the detail is unimportant. Energy
is conserved. Please do not throw relativity at me to claim otherwise.

Bill
 
A

Anomaly Magnetism

Jan 1, 1970
0
C-O-R-R-E-C-T-I-O-N:

It is important to understand that heat and temperature ARE two
totally different things.


I wrote in flaw:
 
L

Leo Guinto

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi, I am a student at Beliingham Technical College in Bellingham, WA.
I'm currently doing some research on latest news information on the
development of Quantum Computing. If possible, if you can provide me
with any brief information regarding my subject and any Internet
resources site links that you may know of. Any information you provide
is greatly appreciated! Thank You!
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anomaly Magnetism said:
It is important to understand that heat and temperature and two
*totally* different things.

I'm sorry, at what point did I confuse the two? Of course they are
different things. We were discussing how accurate it is to consider e-m
radiation (a form of energy) as 'heat' (a different form of energy).

The energy profile of the e-m radiation given off from an object is a
function of its temperature. And a temperature change is *one* of the
parameters in measuring the change of heat energy in an object.

daestrom
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
AES/newspost said:
Radiation -- specifically blackbody radiation -- can absolutely have a
totally meaningful and physically significant temperature.

The temperature of the radiation in a region of "empty" space will come
to thermal equilibrium -- or at least, move toward thermal equilibrium
--with the temperature(s) of the matter that surrounds the region, or
with which the region interactions.

Here I disagree. It *is* true that a broad spectrum of photons are said to
have a 'temperature', but that isn't quite right. What is meant by this is
that the energy distribution of the e-m radiation '...is similar to that
radiated by an ideal blackbody of a particular temperature.'

Since 'temperature' is an affect of molecular kinetic energy, and photons
have zero rest mass, they cannot have 'kinetic energy' in the traditional
sense (1/2 mv^2).

Even deep space has low-level e-m radiation from the Big Bang. These
microwaves are said to be at 'temperature of approximately 3 degrees
Kelvin.' But what that means is the temperature profile of this radiation
is similar to that of a 3 degreeK blackbody. Any body, placed in such a
field, regardless of emissivity will tend to reach that temperature over
time (assuming its own radiation is not reflected back towards itself
perfectly).

Like I said, it is mostly semantics. But e-m radiation has a frequency
profile, or specific-energy photons, not a temperature. It only is useful
to talk of 'temperature' if the energy profile is similar to that of a
blackbody radiator of that temperature.

Take for example, a radiation field of one specific energy (perhaps a radar
antenna or microwave). Would you say it has a 'temperature' that
corresponds to the energy level of these photons? If you put a body in this
field, it will warm until its emissions equaled the total energy absorbed
(assuming for discussion there is no conduction or convection cooling the
object). But since the object radiates over a broad spectrum, and the
incoming energy is just a narrow frequency/wavelength, it's equilibrium
temperature is *not* the 'temperature' of the radiation. Not very useful to
say the radiation temperature is 'X', but any object in equilibrium with
that radiation source is 'Y'. Nor to say that sometimes you can
characterize radiation by giving a temperature reading, and other times you
cannot.

In fact, if the field strength is high enough, you could heat the object
above the 'temperature' of the incident radiation. Simple proof is to heat
a cup of coffee in a microwave. The 'temperature' of microwaves is far
below freezing, yet there is your nice hot cup of coffee.

daestrom
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anomaly Magnetism said:
[email protected] (George Wilkie) wrote in message space.

Temperature doesn't. Heat does.

No, heat does not travel through space. It doesn't 'travel' except by
phonons (not photons) between molecules of matter or by moving the matter
itself. What travels through 'empty space' is e-m radiation. And it is
only converted to heat if it is absorbed by matter.

daestrom
 
A

AES/newspost

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Like I said, it is mostly semantics. But e-m radiation has a frequency
profile, or specific-energy photons, not a temperature. It only is useful
to talk of 'temperature' if the energy profile is similar to that of a
blackbody radiator of that temperature.

True -- at least, it's only rigorously valid to talk of temp in this
case -- but various possible other responses to this:

1) Rigorously interpreted, temperature only applies -- to anything, of
any sort -- in equilibrium. Things tend to move toward equilibrium, but
never get there. The universe is not in equilibrium, nor are any
subcomponents of it (since nothing is really *absolutely* isolated from
everything else. Temperature is, therefore, a meaningless concept, not
just for radiation, but for anything?

2) The "heat" in a hot solid (or gas) equally implies a frequency
profile, or "specific-energy phoNons" in your wording. This profile, in
a gas or solid sample, is usually close to the expected blackbody or
Maxwell or Boltzmann or whatever distribution corresponding to a given
temperature, but can also be slightly different from it.

3) Useful calculations can be, regularly are, done treating e-m
radiation as a kind of substance: blackbody radiation in an enclosure
has a certain specific heat, entropy, all the other thermodynamic
quantities, including temperature. You can take two radiation baths at
different temperatures; use the hotter one to pump an idealized maser or
laser transition; use the other one to cool the "idler" transition of
the masing or laser system; and the conversion of heat to energy will
obey What's-his-name's principle of conversion of heat to work.

In short, thermodynamic concepts, including temperature, apply with
equal rigor (and equal usefulness) to radiation or matter
 
A

Anomaly Magnetism

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
No, heat does not travel through space. It doesn't 'travel' except by
phonons (not photons) between molecules of matter or by moving the matter
itself. What travels through 'empty space' is e-m radiation.

E-M radiation at infrared frequencies?

This is confusing. So many science books say that infrared radiation
is heat radiation. Yet, medical journals dealing with radiation injury
state that exposure to higher frequencies results in further
concentration of generated heat in the surface of the skin, while
lower-frequencies allow generated heat to dissapate faster.

Higher-frequencies have a poorer Dissapation-to-Generation Ratio (DGR)
than lower-frequencies.

"DGR" is the amount of the heat dissapated versus the amount of heat
generated.

Given a constant amplitude (wattage), the overall amount of heat
produced is the same. However, due to the poor DGR of short-wave
radiation, burns associated with higher-frequencies often show further
thermal protein denaturation than burns associated lower-frequencies.
And it is
only converted to heat if it is absorbed by matter.

Then I take it there is no way of measuring heat without the presence
of matter.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
AES/newspost said:
2) The "heat" in a hot solid (or gas) equally implies a frequency
profile, or "specific-energy phoNons" in your wording. This profile, in
a gas or solid sample, is usually close to the expected blackbody or
Maxwell or Boltzmann or whatever distribution corresponding to a given
temperature, but can also be slightly different from it.

I'm not sure you're understanding my use of the word 'phonon'. It has
nothing to do with e-m radiation. It is a generally accepted term for the
'waves' of kinetic energy transfer that occur *inside* crystalline
substances. The transfer of kinetic energy from one molecule to the next
(heat conduction) can be treated as a transfer of 'phonon's.

The e-m radiation from an object, as you say is distributed in a shape close
to that of the 'black-body' radiation predicted by Maxwell-Boltzmann. The
slight differences from the 'ideal' are what make spectroscopy possible
since the differences are unique for each chemical/elemental compound.

But don't you still find it 'curious' that we can use microwaves, which many
say are at a 'temperature' of only a few degrees K, to heat things to
several hundred K?? So the 'temperature' aspect of e-m radiation is only of
limited usefulness. Even in your maser/laser setup, the two baths must be
of the same spectral 'shape' for your temperature calculations to work out.
One cannot be a narrow spectrum created perhaps by a magnetron or x-ray and
the other by thermal radiation. If they are different, then the
'temperature' of each is not representative of their total energy
influx/outflux.

The underlying *assumption* when assigning a 'temperature' to e-m radiation
is that it is broad-spectrum profile close to the Maxwell-Boltzmann
distribution. Forget that assumption, and one can easily come up with
garbage for a calculation.

daestrom
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anomaly Magnetism said:
E-M radiation at infrared frequencies?

E-m radiation from a thermal source is broad-band and contains a whole range
of frequencies. The 'peak' of the distribution is a function of the body's
temperature and is often in the infra-red but not always. Take for example
the Sun. It radiates a wide range, the 'peak' distribution is in the
'visible' light range of frequencies (evolutionary biologists might argue
that the 'visible range' is only called that because we evolved eyes to use
the most prevalent frequencies available from the Sun, but that's another
story ;-)

This is confusing. So many science books say that infrared radiation
is heat radiation.

That is a simplification. Infra-red is e-m radiation, like any other except
it is considered to be of a particular range of frequencies. In early
works, each 'band' of e-m radiation was given a name by the folks that
worked with it the most. 'Radio' waves, 'infra-red', 'visible', 'cosmic'
are all names for e-m radiation of a general frequency range. Certain
things about all of them are the same, other aspects change as the frequency
of the e-m changes. All travel through vacumn, all are composed of
alternating electric and magnetic fields at right angles. All show
properties similar to 'waves' and 'particles' (called photons with a 't').

But different frequencies carry different amounts of energy for each
'particle'. The way each frequency interacts with matter is somewhat
different. Some frequencies pass through most matter with attenuation
determined by the density of the matter (x-rays). Other very narrow
frequencies are reflected from objects to your eye giving different objects
a different color. ('reflection' is even a simplification, but lets not get
*too* complicated here)
Yet, medical journals dealing with radiation injury
state that exposure to higher frequencies results in further
concentration of generated heat in the surface of the skin, while
lower-frequencies allow generated heat to dissapate faster.

Higher-frequencies have a poorer Dissapation-to-Generation Ratio (DGR)
than lower-frequencies.

Higher frequency e-m radiation carries more energy per photon. In the range
of infra-red, this energy simply raises the temperature of the molecule it
interacts with.

Now, if you have two sources radiating e-m in a broad spectrum as thermal
emitters, and one is much hotter than the other, the hotter one will be
radiating more higher-frequency photons.

I don't know your medical text on DGR, but it seems how far the radiation
travels *into* the tissue before interacting would be an important factor.
If all the radiation interacts within the first few millimeters, than all
the energy is deposited there. If the radiation doesn't interact as easily
with the compounds of skin (water, amino-acids, whatever), then the
radiation travels deeper and the energy is deposited in a larger volume of
tissue. The energy is then able to be distributed from that larger volume
more effectively before the temperature rises to the point of damage.
"DGR" is the amount of the heat dissapated versus the amount of heat
generated.

Given a constant amplitude (wattage), the overall amount of heat
produced is the same. However, due to the poor DGR of short-wave
radiation, burns associated with higher-frequencies often show further
thermal protein denaturation than burns associated lower-frequencies.

Given the same wattage, 'short-wave radiation' would contain more higher
energy photons. If the tissue is more 'opaque' to these higher energy
photons, they will deposit their energy in the top-most layers of tissue.
With the same energy being deposited in a smaller volume, its temperature
will rise higher, no doubt causing more injury.

But note that its the relative opacity and how much of the radiation that
interacts with the tissue that is important. X-rays are much higher energy
still than your 'short waves'. Yet much of the body is relatively
transparent to them and most pass through with little interaction. Not that
you should stand in front of a 100 Watt x-ray machine for as long as you
would in front of an 'infrared heater' ;-)

The other important point of e-m radiation and the human body is the exact
nature of the interaction. Infrared will raise the kinetic energy of
molecules (i.e. warm them). Radio and microwaves can excite water molecules
to a high degree (such as in microwave ovens). X-ray, gamma and cosmic
radiation can break the bonds holding molecules together causing
free-radicals and a *potential* for gene failure. So the same amount of e-m
energy aimed at the human body can have different effects depending on how
that energy interacts with the matter making up the human body. And if the
energy is deposited slowly over time, the body can repair the damage more
readily (a low chronic dose of gamma rays over years is less harmful than
one short massive dose).
Then I take it there is no way of measuring heat without the presence
of matter.

Actually, the point of the other discussion in this thread is whether you
can measure 'temperature' without matter. Measuring 'heat' is saying,
'measure the kinetic energy of molecules'. That is hard to do unless you
*have* molecules ;-) But it is also hard to measure the energy of e-m
radiation unless you cause it to interact with some matter and observe the
effects ;-) Even your own eyes wouldn't work unless the e-m radiation
(visible light) interacts with the structures in the retina.

daestrom
 
A

Angelo Campanella

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anomaly said:
C-O-R-R-E-C-T-I-O-N:


etc + much unrelated (to acoustics) discussion=======

Dear other (than alt.sci.physics.acoustics) newsgroups Folks:

Please *refrain* from coss-posting into acoustics unless it is
directly on (acoustic) topic. As you all well know, such
cossposting can diverge into tremendous useless traffic.

Thanks, and have a good life!

Angelo Campanella
--
--------- www.CampanellaAcoustics.com ---------

"I have simply studied carefully whatever I've undertaken, and
tried to hold a reserve that would carry me through." - Charles
A. Lindbergh.

"America is an experiment to be conducted by every generation."
Washington, Madison and Lincoln.
 
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