timed relay adjustmemt

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
Jun 21, 2012
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I NEED TO BUY SOMETHING ALREADY PUT TOGETHER. iM NOT ELECTRIC COMPOTENT GUY. I THINK THE IF A COMPANY ADVERTISES THAT THERE PRODUCT DOES ACERTAIN THING THAT IT NOT TO MUCH TO ASK THAT THE PRODUCT DOES IT. THERES A HUGE DIFFERANCE BETWEEN ZERO AND 3/10S. THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR INSIGHT. ILL LOOK AROUND AND FIND SOMEONE TO BUILD ME THE DEVICE I NEED. HOPEFULLY HE WONT USE ANY PARTS MADE BY HELLA.
Indeed there is a huge difference between zero and 0.3 seconds... in fact the difference is 0.3 seconds, roughly about the time it takes for the average electromagnetically actuated armature to transfer the contacts attached to it from "open" to "closed" or vice-versa.

There are much faster relays than the Hella thingy you are stuck with. Reed relays come to mind. Some reed relays can open or close in a few milliseconds, well within your timing constraints. Some of the things we would need to know to design and build an appropriate circuit are what kind of load the contacts are expected to switch, what voltage is presented to that load, and what is the peak as well as the steady-state current in the solenoid.

A solenoid can be constructed for either AC or DC operation, but in either case it has inductance which will slow it down when it is first energized, unless other measures are taken to compensate for the inductance, such as briefly increasing the voltage supplied to the solenoid beyond its rated voltage. Even if only the rated voltage is applied, not all solenoids are designed to survive continuous actuation. You haven't stated yet how you plan to turn the solenoid off after the button is released and the time delay occurs, at the end of which time delay the solenoid is energized. Or have I got this wrong? Perhaps the solenoid is energized when the button is pressed and is then de-energized after a time delay when the button is released? Which way is it?

There is also the question of what happens when the solenoid is de-energized and its magnetic field collapses. That never happens instantaneously and it is always accompanied by a so-called "back EMF" or back electromotive force, an ancient term for voltage. In simple terms, trying to reduced the magnetic field in a solenoid will result in the generation of voltage by the solenoid that will try to maintain the current that produced the original magnetic field. This voltage can be quite large, much larger than the original energizing voltage, depending on how fast you try to turn the original current off. It can cause arcing at relay contacts that will either destroy the contacts (eventually) or cause them to weld together. There are many solutions to the problem, but all involve dissipating the energy stored in the magnetic field of the solenoid, and all result in a slower de-actuation of the solenoid.

It is for the above reasons that it is necessary to know what you trying to do with the solenoid as well as the electrical characteristics of the solenoid. A part number and manufacturer of the solenoid would be helpful, as well as knowledge of the type of mechanical load the solenoid will be driving. For example, is the solenoid armature or plunger operating against a spring? What distance does it move? How much force is it expected to produce? What is the mass of the moving parts? How fast are the moving parts expected to move?

I am sorry if all this sounds overcomplicated compared to your original request, but you are venturing into an area called mechatronics, the integration of mechanical engineering with electrical engineering. In the past, MEs and EEs got by with minimal communication, and their designs suffered for it. Today most engineers must embrace both disciplines and, depending on the application, even more esoteric subjects.

Good luck finding someone who will build what you need based on the sketchy information you have provided so far. If I were that person I would demand a "best effort" time-and-materials contract with a fixed fee and no guarantee that it would work for your purposes. The only entities I know of who agree to such terms are agencies of the U.S. Government... your and my tax dollars at work.

I am going to press a momentary button that will send 12v to a relay then to a solenoid and when I release the button I need it to have a delayed response. That's why I thought a time release relay would work.The Hella unit I purchased would work if I could get the delay time down to the numbers that I need.
The Hella relay actuates immediately when power is applied to it via your push button. When you release the button, the relay de-actuates after a time delay. Even if the timing were what you want, I don't see how this relay de-actuating will accomplish your goal of energizing the solenoid after a time delay. The relay is de-energized BEFORE you push the button and it is de-energized (with a time delay) AFTER you release the button. How is the solenoid not actuated under BOTH of these conditions? Or does pressing the button actuate the relay AND the solenoid at the same time, with the solenoid de-actuating after a time delay when the button is released? A wiring diagram would help.
 

basset

May 20, 2015
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pressing the button actuate the relay AND the solenoid at the same time, with the solenoid de-actuating after a time delay when the button is released, this is what is going to happen. Yall on this board are way above my pay grade. I know what I need and didn't think it would be so hard to figure. Like most things ive come up with in the past I will find a way to get it done.The Hella relay actuates immediately when power is applied to it via your push button. When you release the button, the relay de-actuates after a time delay. Thanks anyway
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
Jun 21, 2012
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pressing the button actuate the relay AND the solenoid at the same time, with the solenoid de-actuating after a time delay when the button is released, this is what is going to happen. Yall on this board are way above my pay grade. I know what I need and didn't think it would be so hard to figure. Like most things ive come up with in the past I will find a way to get it done.The Hella relay actuates immediately when power is applied to it via your push button. When you release the button, the relay de-actuates after a time delay. Thanks anyway
Thanks for being so explicit in what you want the relay to do. And earlier you mentioned that a pair of 10 A contacts will be sufficient. So the only question is whether the solenoid operates on AC or DC and what voltage it requires.

I found several solid-state relays (SSRs) that will switch 120 VAC at 10 A using a 3 to 32 VDC control signal. Here is one you might consider. These have optically-isolated control inputs that "look like" a 1000 ohm resistor in series with a light-emitting diode (LED) for optical isolation. The output is a pair of back-to-back inverse-parallel silicon controlled rectifiers (SCRs) with a "snubber" circuit built in to protect the SCRs from the back-EMF of inductive loads. You connect the SSR output in series with the line voltage and the solenoid, connecting the other side of the solenoid to neutral.

If we assume that 12 VDC will turn the SSR on, then it will draw 12 mA when the switch is pressed. To create your time-delay on release action, you can place a large electrolytic capacitor across the control terminals to provide the "on" signal when the switch button is released. The voltage across this capacitor will be 12 VDC initially when the switch is depressed, and it will then start to discharge toward zero volts through the SSR's internal 1000 ohm resistance and its internal LED when the switch is released. When the control voltage reaches approximately 1 VDC the SSR will turn off. See the specifications at the link above.

A capacitor discharges exponentially according to this relation: Ecap = Einit [ ε^(-T/RC) ], where Ecap is the voltage across the capacitor, Einit is the initial voltage across the capacitor (12 V in this instance), ε the base of natural logarithms (about 2.718), the caret ^ indicates exponentiation, T is the time in seconds required for the voltage to decay to the Ecap value, R is the resistance in ohms (1000 oms in this instance), and C is the capacitance in farads.

So, we want Ecap = 1 V when the SSR turns off. Re-arranging the equation we get Ecap/Einit = ε^(-T/RC). Substitute Ecap = 1 V and Einit = 12 V and the left side becomes (1/12) = about 0.0833 = ε^(-T/RC). Now, if you take the natural logarithm of both sides, you get ln (0.0833) = (-T/RC). Solve this for C using T = 0.07 seconds and R = 1000 ohms: 1/C = - ln 0.0833 (-R/T). So, C = 1 / [(ln 0.0833)(1000)/(0.07)] = about 28 microfarads after substituting R = 1000, T = 0.07 into the right side and taking the reciprocal. Note that the log of a fraction is a negative number so the negative signs cancel.

You should pick a somewhat larger value capacitor to achieve your maximum time delay because you will want to place a variable resistor in parallel with it to make the capacitor discharge faster and allow you to adjust for a shorter time delay. I would recommend using a 10,000 ohm variable resistor and a 50 microfarad, 15 WVDC, capacitor. Pressing the button applies 12 VDC to the input and charges the capacitor, turning the SSR on. Releasing the switch allows the electrolytic capacitor to discharge through the SSR input resistance and the variable resistor connected in parallel with it. When the voltage across the capacitor reaches a certain minimum value, about 1 V DC, the SSR turns off and de-energizes the solenoid.

Realize that the minimum timing you can achieve with an AC SSR is one half-cycle of the 60 Hz line frequency, or 1/120 seconds, or about eight milliseconds. This occurs because the SSR is triggered on at the zero crossing of the AC line and must wait until the next zero crossing to turn off the silicon controlled rectifier.

If your solenoid happens to operate on DC, at whatever voltage, I cannot recommend a 10 A solid-state switch. The largest I could find was only capable of switching 4 A.

Hmmm. All of this is above your pay grade? I think not. We all work for free here, and I am retired trying to get by on social security income.
 
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basset

May 20, 2015
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WELL I HOOKED THIS hELLA RELAY UP TO MY TIMER TODAY AND FOUND THAT WHEN I WIRED IT WITHOUT THE DELAY MODE IT RESPONDED WITH ZERO TIME, BUT WHEN I RAN IT THROUGH THE DELAY MODE THE DELAY WAS 3/10S. WITCH PROVES TO ME THAT IT DOESNT TAKE 3/10S TO ENTERGISE ALL THE STUFF INSIDE THE UNIT. SO hella is full of crap when they said it can be adjusted from 0 to 2.5 sec.
 

Kiwi

Jan 28, 2013
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I wasn't going to respond in this thread again after my original post, but.......

Hella is a well respected German based company that manufactures a wide range of quality products in the automotive and associated fields. I have been using their products for over thirty years as an Automotive Electrician.
The fact that you have had problems with a single product from their vast range is unfortunate, but this does happen from time to time. I have had many instances over the years where products from various manufacturers have not performed as I wanted, or expected. You just have another look at what you are trying to do and move on. There is usually a Plan B.
Bad mouthing the company in public will not solve the problem. In fact it is often counter productive.

Have you contacted your supplier to see if you can get a refund?
They may have access to a fully electronic device that will meet your needs.

Finally, posts in capital letters, as well as being rather difficult to read, are considered to be shouting.
 
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