Which is the best hobby do-it-yourself method for making PCB's?

S

samIam

Jan 1, 1970
0
An additional issue with that is what to do with all the chemicals
afterwards. Some people store that forever and then one day the
container rusts out or the cat knocks it over.

Good point.
I tracked down the hazardous material depot in my county. I am going
to visit them some time next week to "unload" some used ferric
chloride

Once I know how much it costs and how often I can bring it to them,
Ill get serious about manufacturing test boards I design at home.
 
A

Anton Erasmus

Jan 1, 1970
0
In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
20 - 30% is rework for missing/broken traces etc.

I am just wondering what is the best hobby do-it-yourself method?

Someone hinted at photo transfer

What has worked for you guys in the past?
What gives the best results on a fairly consistent basis?
How about double sided boards?
Thanks

I have found that using pre-clad boards with positive resist work
quite well. With the spray on positive resist, it is difficult to get
a nice even coating without any bubbles and dust.
http://www.bungard.com/ have very good quality pre-sensitised
PCBs. (Both single and double sided with a long shelve life)
Print the layout on a transparency using an inkjet printer. Clamp
the transparency against the PCB (photo resist) side with a piece
of transparent glass. Expose in sunlight for about 45 seconds.
(Experiment a bit). Develop PCB, and etch. I have had very good
results with even 10mil tracks and 10 mil spacing.
When doing double sided, one must make very sure of the alignment of
the 2 sides.

Regards
Anton Erasmus
 
S

samIam

Jan 1, 1970
0
When I tried the iron-on method, I had to go back and
fix up a couple of traces but nowhere near 20-30% of em.

lol
Maybe its a bit of an exaggeration but I would wager at LEAST
15% of the board' traces needed repair

My board size was 4x6

I learned a lesson with the last board, from now on (for hobby
boards) I use 15-20 mil traces and leave 50-75mil space between
trace lines ... in case I have to go over it with an etch resist
or permanent marker.

I am aiming to get it as near perfect when it etches so I dont
have to do fixes afterwards.

We will see with my next design 6502sbc thats 8x8 in size and
double sided ... tons of vias ...
 
S

samIam

Jan 1, 1970
0
11) SMT components can be soldered by hand, but I've had far better luck
using solder paste and a toaster oven. Digikey has it (KE1507-ND) but
as a rather high price ($42 for 35g), and you'll need to find a syringe
tip to use, the smaller the better. I'm still getting a feel for
exactly how much paste to use for different parts, and the
time/temperature constant of my toaster oven is abysmal, so the process
is still evolving, but it's worked fairly well so far.

I've taken a few closeup pics of some of my most recent boards, both
good and bad:

http://www.omegacs.net/misc/pcbs/

Thats pretty impressive ... I thought SMT were off use for hobby work
without some really expensive oven/manufacturing equiptment.

Again, NICE work
I haven't done any yet, but I plan on doing some attempts eventually.
The process would be to put the toner and film on one side, drill 3+
reference holes, then transfer the other side. The problem may be what
the laminator will do to the first side when going through the second
time. It may be necessary to use even more extra dimensions on the PCB
and transfer films and carefully tack the two pieces of transfer paper
down through the drilling process, and laminate the two sides at the
same time.

Heres my second to last attempt ... its been redesigned since
then and will be placed on a .062 FR4 copper board.

http://www.geocities.com/asa386/My6502Sbc_Anubis/pcb_manufacture/

With vias I just drill holes ... place a small wire on one end, solder,
solder other end ... snip off the remainder

I write low level code for a living ... so this is just hobby work
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
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samIam said:
Thats pretty impressive ... I thought SMT were off use for hobby work
without some really expensive oven/manufacturing equiptment.

Generally speaking, SMT parts are actually faster to use than leaded parts.
Where I've worked in the past, the production workers preferred the SMT
boards!

Those PCB pictures the guy posted are nice... kinda reminiscent of what milled
boards look like!
 
?

:-)

Jan 1, 1970
0
samIam said:
Thats pretty impressive ... I thought SMT were off use for hobby work
without some really expensive oven/manufacturing equiptment.

Again, NICE work

Nice ! That was one of my goal, a xilinx XC95xxx, now I know it's
possible to do :)
 
E

Erik Walthinsen

Jan 1, 1970
0
:-) said:
Nice ! That was one of my goal, a xilinx XC95xxx, now I know it's
possible to do :)

For some reason that one didn't work so well. Some kind of scum left on
the outside of a few rows of the pins, and I didn't restrict the copper
pour underneath, so there's an entire row of pins all bridged to each
other under the chip. I'll be carefully re-doing that one, as well as
tweaking the Eagle printout by 1/128 of an inch (0.8%) to correct for
the undersized artwork. The row of 22 pins causes the board to curve
quite badly, so I had to break them up and file off a gap between groups
of pins for this particular board. Besides, there are several broken
traces ;-(
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
"uneradable" means worse than obscene - not fit even for adults!

No it doesn't, and nor does unreadable.

You need to become familiar with a dictionary.

-Chuck
 
S

samIam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Actually I didnt need to take this step at all. The car repair shop
(where they offer 15 minute oil changes)was more than happy to
add the ferric cl to his contamination/waste disposal
binge/bottle/whatever.

I stopped by for an oil change and transmission flush and noticed the
sign "waste disposal fee - $1.20" and I asked the guy what it was for.
He replied ... that they charge to dispose the contimated engine oil
(I thought that was PART of the oil change cost) .. in any case I
casually asked if I could bring in a FeCl I have accumulated in a large
snapple plastic bottle and he said sure

I brough it in and mentioned "hey be careful that stuff will eat through
flesh and metal" and he replied "calm down, I know exactly what this
stuff is"

So I will be taking it to him after ever 6 or 7 boards I make and its
just $1.20 to add it to his waste disposal ...

case closed
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
samIam said:
Actually I didnt need to take this step at all. The car repair shop
(where they offer 15 minute oil changes)was more than happy to
add the ferric cl to his contamination/waste disposal
binge/bottle/whatever.

I stopped by for an oil change and transmission flush and noticed the
sign "waste disposal fee - $1.20" and I asked the guy what it was for.
He replied ... that they charge to dispose the contimated engine oil
(I thought that was PART of the oil change cost) .. in any case I
casually asked if I could bring in a FeCl I have accumulated in a large
snapple plastic bottle and he said sure

I brough it in and mentioned "hey be careful that stuff will eat through
flesh and metal" and he replied "calm down, I know exactly what this
stuff is"

So I will be taking it to him after ever 6 or 7 boards I make and its
just $1.20 to add it to his waste disposal ...

Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
and you now have real toxic waste.

The folks that pick up this guy's waste are expecting certain contaminants
to be in the oil, but not FeCl. If they find out about the FeCl,
they will not be able to recycle the oil. They will have to send it, at
great cost, to a toxic waste disposal processor.

The FeCl will go directly to the bottom of his waste oil tank, and stay
there regardless of how many times the tank is emptied and refilled. It
will surely etch a hole in the bottom of the tank.

-Chuck
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chuck said:
Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
and you now have real toxic waste.

The folks that pick up this guy's waste are expecting certain contaminants
to be in the oil, but not FeCl. If they find out about the FeCl,
they will not be able to recycle the oil. They will have to send it, at
great cost, to a toxic waste disposal processor.

The FeCl will go directly to the bottom of his waste oil tank, and stay
there regardless of how many times the tank is emptied and refilled. It
will surely etch a hole in the bottom of the tank.

However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is
almost completely inert in the environment. Just neutralize it with
washing soda (sodium carbonate) till it quits fizzing. Then all iron
and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is
almost completely inert in the environment. Just neutralize it with
washing soda (sodium carbonate) till it quits fizzing. Then all iron
and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet.


The RatShack FeCl jugs used to (still do?) advise you to flush it down
the toilet after it's used. Sounds reasonable to me... a little iron,
a little copper.

John
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
The RatShack FeCl jugs used to (still do?) advise you to flush it down
the toilet after it's used. Sounds reasonable to me... a little iron,
a little copper.

John

I think the copper compound in spent etchant can kill the 'good'
bacteria in a septic tank system, for those out of reach of municipal
water-treatment systems.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is
almost completely inert in the environment. Just neutralize it with
washing soda (sodium carbonate) till it quits fizzing. Then all iron
and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet.

At that point, the proper thing to do would be to filter through some
paper towels, and throw the solids into the trash. Copper compounds are
extremely poisonous to fish and plants.

My whole point was that dumping the FeCl into a tank of used oil, just
because the stupid mechanic says you can is well... stupid. You, and
the environment would be better off if you dumped the waste onto the
ground, and let it kill some weeds, or trees, that you don't like.

Flushing it down the toilet isn't a real good idea either, the FeCl does
a number on the cast iron pipe that lives in many plumbing systems. Many
moons ago, I worked for a PCB manufacturing house. They wouldn't allow
me to recycle their spent FeCl (the supplier would give me about $1/gallon
for spent FeCl, two carboys was worth more than I made in a day's wages)
They dumped the waste FeCl down the floor drain in the building, and then
had to bust up the floor every other year to replace the sewer pipe.

If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without
regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)

-Chuck
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chuck said:
If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without
regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)

Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda. It will do
nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda. It will do
nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud.

I can't remember the details now, but I vaguely recall some method to
rejuvenate used FeCl.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
I can't remember the details now, but I vaguely recall some method to
rejuvenate used FeCl.

Add hydrochloric acid and oxygenate with air bubbles. But it
eventually becomes cupric chloride (green instead of golden brown).
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is
almost completely inert in the environment. Just neutralize it with
washing soda (sodium carbonate) till it quits fizzing. Then all iron
and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet.

OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate
as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3?

I have a confession to make - I had enough of the RS stuff to be about
an inch deep in a 9" x 12" cake pan, and I just dumped it down the storm
drain, which leads to the ocean, so I feel so guilty I should probably
turn Liberal or something[1]. ;-P I had done one double-sided board, if
that makes any difference. And the only heat I used was to set the pan in
the driveway in the sun. :)

Cheers!
Rich
[1] I'm a smoker, and when I'm, say, walking down the street and finish a
cigarette, if there isn't an ashtray or trash can handy I'll put the butt
in my pocket until I get to one. :)
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda. It will do
nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud.

Which sounds kinda like it'd be the same color as the bit of mud they
get lined with already. ;-P (ever disconnected the dump hose of a trailer
that's been sitting in a lot for 3 years? Eww!)

Cheers!
Rich
 
A

Andrew Tweddle

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
I can't remember the details now, but I vaguely recall some method to
rejuvenate used FeCl.

...Jim Thompson
Add a little HCl to the mix and reuse!

Andrew
 
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