WWVB Ferrite Antenna Revisited

B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just dug up an old design of mine where I was planning to use 7 Amidon
R33-050-750 0.5 inch by 7.5 inch rods in a bundle. i.e. one rod in the
center and six wrapped around it yeilding a "bumpy" 1.5 inch diameter
bundle.

Somehow in my madness, I had calculated that this design would increase the
effective antenna cross sectional area and improve the S/N.

I had calculated that I needed about 1000 turns to get 70 mhy. I found
another of my old calculations that predicted 883 turns, AWG 38 spaced one
wire diameter apart at 126. turns per inch. I had planned to wrap two
strands at once, then coat with Q dope. When it was dry enough, I would
remove one of the winding, then wrap the layer and start the next one.

Any comments, even those questioning my sanity, will be greatly appreciated.

Now that I am semi-retired, I thought I'd give this another try, but I
wanted to run it by the experts here.
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
Forgot to mention that I was considering using a PVC 1.5 inch ID pipe as a
coil form.
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
Whoops -- Major correction. Only one layer required.

It's been a long time and memory is poor.
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just found a served Litz magnet wire at
http://www.mwswire.com/slitz6.htm

This wire is insulated with Nylon/Poly and is AWG 38 with a mean OD of
0.0075 in. This would yeild about 133 TPI close spaced. This is very close
to the ideal spacing of 0.00793 in.

I'm considering winding this Litz wire close spaced.

Any comments?
 
M

Mark

Jan 1, 1970
0
why do you think a larger antenna will improve the S/N. At low
frequencies the noise floor is typically set by atmospherics. with a
bigger antenna you pick up more signal and more noise.

Mark
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
I did the calculation for S/N as a function of effective aperature. It was
quite complex.
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
I did the calculation for S/N as a function of effective aperature.
It was quite complex.

At Tektronix-Orlando FO,the WWVB antenna we had for our Spectracom 8161
60Khz WWV receiver/comparator was only a ~6" ferrite rod with a preamp on a
flexible PCB,all slid into a 2" PVC pipe.

We got a fairly decent reception,with the antenna indoors,as our building
owner would not allow us a rooftop mounting.The hard part was keeping the
antenna away from other instruments that generated noise.
 
E

Eric

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think you're right, Bob. It's quite likely this will yield great
results.

You might also consider a loop antenna like the Palomar commercial
units. Those are sweet - and they have a simple tuner. At those
frequencies a simple tuner can help a lot to reduce off-frequency
interference.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob said:
I just dug up an old design of mine where I was planning to use 7 Amidon
R33-050-750 0.5 inch by 7.5 inch rods in a bundle. i.e. one rod in the
center and six wrapped around it yeilding a "bumpy" 1.5 inch diameter
bundle.

Somehow in my madness, I had calculated that this design would increase the
effective antenna cross sectional area and improve the S/N.

I had calculated that I needed about 1000 turns to get 70 mhy. I found
another of my old calculations that predicted 883 turns, AWG 38 spaced one
wire diameter apart at 126. turns per inch. I had planned to wrap two
strands at once, then coat with Q dope. When it was dry enough, I would
remove one of the winding, then wrap the layer and start the next one.

Any comments, even those questioning my sanity, will be greatly appreciated.

Now that I am semi-retired, I thought I'd give this another try, but I
wanted to run it by the experts here.

I haven't done a finite element analysis on such things, but I think
you can approximate the same effect as a fat bundle by adding a big
ferrite bead on each end of one rod, (pick one that just slips over
the end) including the same inductance per turn. Inserting the rod
about a diameter into the bead should be enough.

This gives you a lower resistance and lower stray capacitance coil
than wrapping around a big bundle. I would also use a very thin coil
form, like one made of a few layers of epoxy and paper wrapped over a
few layers of Saran Wrap over the rod. The PVC pipe adds turn length
without doing anything useful for it. The ferrite rods are pretty
good insulators, all by themselves. If you can measure resistance
between two points on one with an ohm meter, it is not RF ferrite.
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
At Tektronix-Orlando FO,the WWVB antenna we had for our Spectracom
8161 60Khz WWV receiver/comparator was only a ~6" ferrite rod with a
preamp on a flexible PCB,all slid into a 2" PVC pipe.

We got a fairly decent reception,with the antenna indoors,as our
building owner would not allow us a rooftop mounting.The hard part was
keeping the antenna away from other instruments that generated noise.

BTW,Our office was on the ground floor,and the outside "wall" was all
glass,and 'looking' in the proper general direction.
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
Guess there's only one way to find out. Looks like its back to winding.
Now if can only find those 7 ferrite rods ;=}} I may have to reorder. I
was using the Amidon R33-050-750 rods.
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK -- I dug up the Amidon application notes. The reasoning that I used to
justify a large bundle is as follows:

Loop induced voltage = 2*Pi*N*A*Mu_sub_epsilon*F / Lambda

where :

Mu_sub_epsilon = effective permeability of the rod
F = Field strength in microvolts per meter
N = number of turns
A = cross sectional area of loop in square meters
Lambda = wavelength in meters

The idea is to maximize A. The usual assumption is that the dominant noise
is the noise in the receiver bandwidth and not atmospheric noise.
When atmospheric noise dominates, the strategy fails as someone has pointed
out.
 
R

Robert Scott

Jan 1, 1970
0
I saw a plan once for a WWVB antenna that was made of a 3 foot
diameter coil inside of an electrostatic shield. The shield was a
loop of copper pipe with a small gap so it didn't become a shorted
turn. The idea was that electrostatic noise could be shielded,
leaving only the electromagnetic component to get through to the coil.

Is there any advantage in doing things that way, as opposed to the
ferrite rod that is being discussed in this thread?


-Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob said:
OK -- I dug up the Amidon application notes. The reasoning that I used to
justify a large bundle is as follows:

Loop induced voltage = 2*Pi*N*A*Mu_sub_epsilon*F / Lambda

where :

Mu_sub_epsilon = effective permeability of the rod
F = Field strength in microvolts per meter
N = number of turns
A = cross sectional area of loop in square meters
Lambda = wavelength in meters

The idea is to maximize A. The usual assumption is that the dominant noise
is the noise in the receiver bandwidth and not atmospheric noise.
When atmospheric noise dominates, the strategy fails as someone has pointed
out.

I have no argument with any of that.

The rod is intercepting the energy in a volume by steering the flux
passing through some cross sectional area larger than the area of the
ends of the rod, through the length of the rod, and thus, through the
coil. I say an area larger than the area of the ends of the rod,
because the high permeability of the rods gathers flux that would have
gone past the rod if it has been air. Larger end areas allow flux
that is further from the rod's center line to detour through the rod
without having to crowd in near the more central flux as much. So
larger ends gather more flux. A simple rod may be easy to
manufacture, but it is not the optimum shape to gather flux from space
and transfer energy into a coil.

My point is that the *effective* area of flux intercepted by the rod
is related to the areas of its ends, not to the cross sectional area
of its middle, as long as the permeability of the middle is high
enough that the flux isn't held back by too small a center area.

This is from the "Rod Permeability vs. Rod Length divided by Rod
Diameter" graph on:
http://www.amidoncorp.com/aai_ferriterods.htm

Note that for a permeability 10 rod, it poops out when the length
reaches 10 times the diameter. At that length, flux near the rod has
little incentive to dip towards the ends and crowd in along with other
flux to go through the rod, and will just as well run along side the
rod. I have added a factor of center area to end area to this graph
which has assumed this factor is always 1.

So, for 33 material, with a permeability at least 800, as long as the
overall length is much shorter than 800 times the end diameter times
the middle area divided by the end area, most of the available nearby
flux that would have passed through a constant diameter rod will take
the short cut through the rod (and through your coil), even though it
is necked down in the middle.

For example, if you used 1.5 inch beads with half inch holes on each
end of a half inch rod, the combination would gather as much flux as a
1.5 inch diameter solid rod as long as the overall length was much
less than:
800*1.5*(pi*0.25^2)/(pi*0.75^2)=133 inches, so your 7.5 inch rod
extended by, perhaps a couple inches, by the beads, is well within
"much shorter than". Gluing two rods end to end would more than
double the output because the volume of space that flux is gathered
from would more than double. This is because the effective area of
flux gathering is bigger than the end areas, and how much bigger
depends on the rod length, which is not included in the formula. The
formula looks pretty suspect to me (like it is for an air core coil)
because there is no reference to rod length. It gives the same result
for a zero length rod, unless "effective permeability" does not mean
rod permeability, but some combination of rod permeability and length.

Doing it my way should cut your winding resistance and capacitance
down by a factor of about 4 (with the thin form) while keeping the
intercepted energy a little higher (assuming the beads have an outside
diameter 3 times the rod's diameter and extend its length to something
like 9.5 inches). To me, that equates to higher Q and higher energy
output.
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes there can be an advantage. I don't remember all the details. Ir gets
quite complicated. First of all,at 500 Khz., the principal mode of
propagation is the ground wave. I don't remember what the mode is, TM0 etc.
The second problem is the ionospheric problems with the D-Layer. The ground
wave propagates differently that the sky wave.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I saw a plan once for a WWVB antenna that was made of a 3 foot
diameter coil inside of an electrostatic shield. The shield was a
loop of copper pipe with a small gap so it didn't become a shorted
turn. The idea was that electrostatic noise could be shielded,
leaving only the electromagnetic component to get through to the coil.

Is there any advantage in doing things that way, as opposed to the
ferrite rod that is being discussed in this thread?


-Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

Here in Arizona that's the only style I've found effective against all
the man-made noise. Mine was 8" diameter of 1/2" copper pipe and used
a "fiber-tee" junction to avoid the shorted turn.

See the S.E.D/Schematics page of my website for the circuit I used.
Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the antenna (this dates to
1974).

...Jim Thompson
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sorry -- That was supposed to be 60 Khz. NOT 500 Khz. Everything is
getting fuzzy now.....
 
B

Bob Agnew

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here in Arizona that's the only style I've found effective against all
the man-made noise. Mine was 8" diameter of 1/2" copper pipe and used
a "fiber-tee" junction to avoid the shorted turn.

Jim -- Did you mean 8 feet instead of 8" as you said?
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
I saw a plan once for a WWVB antenna that was made of a 3 foot
diameter coil inside of an electrostatic shield. The shield was a
loop of copper pipe with a small gap so it didn't become a shorted
turn. The idea was that electrostatic noise could be shielded,
leaving only the electromagnetic component to get through to the coil.

Is there any advantage in doing things that way, as opposed to the
ferrite rod that is being discussed in this thread?

The ferrite rod antenna can be very well shielded by a grounded layer
of foil that wrapped around the coil, but is slit lengthwise. It also
helps to wind a coil that is symmetrical with respect to its ends and
connect it to a fully differential amplifier with matched input
impedances, so any noise that is common to both ends is rejected.
This makes shielding much less important.
 

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