Assistance with Transistor Theory

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hevans1944

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RESET THREAD.

Hey All,

I am sure theory is the last thing many people want to do and understand. I certainly hated theory years ago!

I can sympathize with that, to some extent. Theory is an integral part of The Scientific Method (TSM), which has been a popular way to try to understand physical reality for several years now. There are other approaches to understanding physical reality, some more successful than others, depending on your criteria for success. My next most favorite approaches are "women's intuition" followed by "divine revelation" and wild ass guessing (WAG).

With TSM, you begin with one or more observations of some aspect of physical reality. Like, when I connect wires randomly to a large battery and a transistor, sometimes the transistor and the wires get very hot and smoke appears. This is my observation. Hooking up the wires is my experiment. Now, to explain what happened, I propose a theory. To test my theory I perform another experiment and observe the result. If the results agree with the expectations of my theory, I gain confidence that my theory probably describes reality... at least to the extent that my theory leads to repeatable and predictable results. That pretty much is all TSM is about: experiment, observe, explain, predict, experiment again to verify predictions..

TSM always generates lots of theories. Unfortunately, theories can NEVER be proven to be true! Why is that? Because all it takes is ONE counter-example to prove a theory is wrong. Some theories hang around for a long time because no one has found a counter-example that refutes them. Such theories can then take on the status of Laws. Ohm's Law, Newton's Laws are just two examples. Sometimes a counter-example refutes only part of a theory, so we don't have to completely discard the theory, just modify it a little to account for the counter-example. Newtons's Laws as "modified" by Einstein's theory of relativity is an example.

So, as your knowledge of electronics grows, so too should your knowledge of theory. Sometimes it's hard to figure out which theories you need to know to accomplish something productive. So start with simple theories that explain simple things. When you find counter-examples that a theory does not explain, and you need to understand why those counter-examples exist, go look for another theory that does explain the counter-examples. Or not. Sometimes useful things can be accomplished without understanding everything going on.

Look at how many Space Shuttles were launched without incident, and apparently without anyone understanding how "O"-rings might get hard and lose their ability to seal if subjected to overnight cold temperatures... in Florida of all places! The theory was available, but no one realized how important it was on launch day... well almost no one. I read or heard later that there were some dissenting voices that didn't want to launch, but these were dismissed. Bye bye, Columbia.

I am looking to better understand the transistor device and how it works including the understanding of the electrical symbol.
I have already done some study and know things such as the base, emitter and collector. I have also used them in a very basic scenario

Yes, actually using stuff is a great way to learn. Use this with some elementary text books that explain why and how. We progress by learning from others because it saves a lot of time that might otherwise be wasted "re-inventing the wheel." Keep a laboratory notebook to record your progress and your ideas, even those ideas that don't work as expected. Well, especially those ideas that don't work as expected at first. We all learn from our mistakes, and the smarter ones among us learn from the mistakes of others.

some questions I have are:
  1. Why is the emitter on an NPN transistor conned to ground? The arrow points in the wrong direction for what I understand electricity travels from negative to Positive.
  2. Is their primary function just an electronic switch?

The emitter is NOT always connected to ground. It depends on the circuit. The arrow points in the direction of conventional current flow, from positive to negative. So get over it. I did.

The primary function of a transistor is to control the flow of electrical current. There are many ways to do this, one being to use the transistor as a switch.

Sorry if these questions sound stupid or have been discussed somewhere before. I haven't been able to find these answers myself.

There are no stupid questions, but there is a plethora of stupid answers, especially on the Internet. Always experiment to separate the chaff from the few grains of "wheat" you might find here. Check references to help determine credibility. Google and other search engines will help you find out about things, but always compare the search results and sources for consistency and accuracy.
 
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hevans1944

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@hevans1944 I think you just pulled the MCLR low :p:D
Well, it seemed to me we were going way beyond what @Laywah originally requested,,, and there have been no recent posts by the OP, so I hope we haven't overwhelmed or alienated him. Youngsters are more sensitive than old codgers.
 

davenn

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Liked your reset thread so much I have bolded it and made it bigger ;)
 

chopnhack

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Well, it seemed to me we were going way beyond what @Laywah originally requested,,, and there have been no recent posts by the OP, so I hope we haven't overwhelmed or alienated him. Youngsters are more sensitive than old codgers.
I hope not either... I can tell you from a similar thread started some time ago that one can learn a lot from watching the banter back and forth. If you discard the opinionated-ness of the comments, there is much to learn. And for the most part, it really has been quite civil!
 

Laywah

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Thanks everyone for your input. After reading everything and doing more experiments, I am learning a much better understanding of the transistor and its functions. Though I don't have the words at this moment to be able to describe what I understand, I want to thank you again for trying to assist with this clarity.
 

davenn

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keep in there and ask Q's when you need to :)
 

LvW

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Kj6EAD - thank you for the interpretation.
Answer to Bob:
As I have mentioned in my post#15 - I do not speak about models and not about design steps.

Should the BJT be the only part that allows two different explanations how they work? No - of course not.
Perhaps the following excerpt from Horowitz/Hill (The Art of Electronivs) helps to clarify my point:

Chapter 2.09 "Transconductance":
Clearly our transistor model [LvW: current-control] is incomplete and needs to be modified in order to handle this circuit situation, as well as others we will talk about shortly. Our fixed-up model, which we will call the transconductance model, will be accurate enough for the remainder of the book.

And at the beginning of chapter 2.10:
But to understand diff. amplifiers, log. converters, temp. compensation, and other important applicati0ns you must think of the transistor as a transconductance device - collector current is determined by base-to-emitter voltage.

As you can see: My only point is "Understanding" -
 
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BobK

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Yes, it is an analogy.

Basically, I am trying to say that if you have two variables and a function that maps one to the other, either one can be said to control the other.

Specifically, the Vbe and Ib are related by an equation, so you can think of either as controlling the other.

Bob
 

mofy

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Wow, what a discussion! Either model works, voltage(ebers moll) or current, but the current is easier to use generally. It's like modelling a voltage source with resistance as a Norton Equivalent Circuit (Current) or a Thevenin Equivalent Circuit(Voltage), they both work and give the same empirical answers.
 

hevans1944

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Quoting @BobK "Specifically, the Vbe and Ib are related by an equation, so you can think of either as controlling the other."

Well, since I did RESET THREAD here, let's talk about relations versus functions...
 

Laplace

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Perhaps the following excerpt from Horowitz/Hill (The Art of Electronivs) helps to clarify my point:

This is what The Art of Electronics says in Section 2.10 that I find most illuminating:

...in (Section 2.01), where we said earlier that IC=hFEIB. We thought of the transistor as a current amplifier whose input circuit behaved like a diode. That's roughly correct, and for some applications it's good enough.

Although the Ebers-Moll equation tells us that the base-emitter voltage "programs" the collector current, this property may not be directly usable in practice (biasing a transistor by applying a base voltage) because of the large temperature coefficient of base-emitter voltage.

In summary: the current-model is roughly correct, while the voltage-model is not usable in practice.

And then we have an OP needing help to determine which way current flows in a transistor, so LvW believes the OP should be introduced to concepts necessary for designing differential amplifiers, logarithmic converters, and temperature compensation to promote “Understanding”. There may be a disconnect here.
 

LvW

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Some recent quotes:

*Either model works, voltage(ebers moll) or current, but the current is easier to use generally.

*In summary: the current-model is roughly correct, while the voltage-model is not usable in practice.

*LvW believes the OP should be introduced to concepts necessary for designing differential amplifiers, logarithmic converters, and temperature compensation to promote “Understanding”. There may be a disconnect here.

(I don`t know how I can comment such a misinterpretation of my contribution; it was a quote only - nothing else).
_____________________

Gentlemen, please excuse me but I`ve got the impression that some of you did not understand what I am speaking about. (May be - my fault).
It seems to be even worse: Some of you even defend the current-control model without realizing that they never use it.

Didn`t you read my reply#15?
We all use the the same design process ofa BJT amplifier - independent if we believe in current- ot voltage control.
The model question concerns the understanding and the theoretical verification of the BJT action only.!


That means: There is no BJT amplifier design which uses any „current-control model“.
If I am wrong - please show me corresponding design steps.
Here is the classical approach for designing an amplifier stage.:

Step 1.) Select a suitable DC current Ic (according to requirements like power consumption and gain, because the gain is determined by the transconductance gm=Ic/VT , which is identical to the inverse slope of the curve Ic=f(Vbe) <<<< attention: Vbe !).

Step 2.) Select a suitable emitter resistance Re for producing a certain voltage Ve=Ie*Re (negative dc voltage feedback for stabilizing the desired operational point.)

Step 3.) Realize a base voltage divider. This voltage divider, normally, is designed as low-resistive as possible (in accordance with constraints like power consumption and input resistance).
Why low-resistive? Because you want to produce a voltage Vb=Vbe-Ve at the base that does not depend too much on the base current Ib=Ic/beta, which has large tolerances/uncertainties due to beta tolerances. Of course we take this current Ib into account during this calculation. If the base current Ib is smaller than 1..2% of the current through the divider you even can forget the Ib contribution. (Does Ib control anything?)

Anything wrong? Did I forget an important contribution from Ib?

Question to all current-control defenders“:
* At which design step something like a current-control model was used? There is only one single mentioning of the current Ib: Must be considered with app. 10% (maximum) of the voltage divider current for producing the desired voltage Vb at the base node..All other variables are voltages.
* To what extend is the current model "easier to use"? And why is the voltage-model "not usable in practice"?
* Can anybody show another "current-control based" design procedure for such a gain stage?
* We all use a voltage of Vbe=0.1...04 volts for class-AB design, don`t we? Don`t we always start with a voltage ?

Comments/corrections are welcome.
LvW
 
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LvW

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This is what The Art of Electronics says in Section 2.10 that I find most illuminating:

...in (Section 2.01), where we said earlier that IC=hFEIB. We thought of the transistor as a current amplifier whose input circuit behaved like a diode. That's roughly correct, and for some applications it's good enough.

Although the Ebers-Moll equation tells us that the base-emitter voltage "programs" the collector current, this property may not be directly usable in practice (biasing a transistor by applying a base voltage) because of the large temperature coefficient of base-emitter voltage.

In summary: the current-model is roughly correct, while the voltage-model is not usable in practice.
.

Laplace - just one comment to your "conclusion" (not usable in practice):
Do you really not understand the meaning of the second quote above? I cannot believe. It is simply an argument in favour of dc feedback - that`s all. And the sentence directly after the quoted sentence says: "You will see later how the Ebers-Moll model [LvW: based on the voltage Vbe] provides insight and solutions to this problem."
Fair discussion? Of course, nobody will apply a fixed ("stiff") voltage between B and E because of the temperature influence of the Ic=f(Vbe) curve (dVbe/dT=-2.1mV/K).
By the way: This argument clearly proofes that Vbe is the controlling quantity only.
What is your answer to the questions in my former post?
 
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Arouse1973

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We all know how a transistor works, even if there is this current control versus voltage control debate. Lets put it to the test then. LVW can you show us the method you would use to design a transistor amplifier. Lets say operating from 15 Volts and a gain of 10 with an input of 100mV, we will asume a base bias network with 10 times the base current and a VE of 1/10th of the supply voltage. We won't include bandwidth as its not important here. it will be interesting to see your design steps.Maybe someone else can have ago using their own method and we can see how it compares.
Adam
 

Ratch

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Laywah,

  1. Why is the emitter on an NPN transistor conned to ground? The arrow points in the wrong direction for what I understand electricity travels from negative to Positive.
When you talk about the "direction of electricity" you must mean the direction the charges flow. The charges move according to their polarity, voltage, and concentration. Therefore you cannot say that electricity (charge flow) always travels from negative to positive. Another thing, charges flow but current exists. Current flow means charge flow flow, which is redundant and ridiculous.

2. Is their primary function just an electronic switch?

No, a BJT is not a switch. It is an analog transconductance device, i.e., in its active region, a voltage controls the current. Now this transconductance device can be incorporated into a circuit that behaves like a switch, or a current amplifier, or a voltage amplifier, or a transresistance amplifier. But, a BJT by itself is a transconductance amplifier when operated in its active region. When you use a BJT to make a voltage or current amplifier, then you have to discuss the CIRCUIT, and not just the BJT.

A lot of folks have been throwing some models at you to "show" what kind of device a BJT is. Know this, a model tells you what a device or circuit does, not how it does it. So how do we know that a BJT is a transconductance device? We know from its physics, not by any one of many models that can be conjured up. There is no ambiguity about how a device works physically. A BJT is a diffusion device. Electrons from the N-type material and holes from the P-type material diffuse into each others territories. They leave behind ions that cause a back-voltage which stops further diffusion. When a forward voltage is applied to the N-P diode, the back-voltage is reduced and more charge can flow until an equilibrium is reached and a constant current is maintained. Therefore, the voltage controls the diffusion, which in turn controls the current. This is not the same mechanism as a voltage across a resistor causing a current. Because diffusion is involved, the current will be in an exponential relationship with regard to the voltage. In a resistor, the current is linear with respect to the voltage.

I don't want to lay too much on you for now. Ask if you have any questions. That includes anyone else, too.

Ratch
 

LvW

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We all know how a transistor works, even if there is this current control versus voltage control debate.
To be honest - I am not sure about that.

. LVW can you show us the method you would use to design a transistor amplifier.
Didn`t I list the sequence in my former reply?
I think, it is up to another person to show HIS steps for designing an amplifier stage showing - in contrast to me - where he uses the control-control principle.
 

Luke Vassallo

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I am currently doing basic transistor theory at school, from the lectures I got a rough idea of what's going on but when it came to the assignment which was biasing a transistor to give a constant current output I realized that I knew nothing about transistors. Then by going through the notes and assembling a transistor circuit on a breadboard everything seemed much more clearer.

So I suggest get a breadboard a few transistors and start experimenting, from the few months of learning electronics that's the best way to learn and understand electronics by building stuff.

hope this helps
 
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