DSC didn't work during break in, HELP?

OK, I am a small alarm company, have 230 accounts and every
break in that had a system has always worked. This one has me totaly
blown away!
It's a small insurance office 2 doors, 2 motion detectors, one
facing north, one south, with a wall between them, 1 glass breaker,
1555 Panel (632). The office was built 3 weeks ago, I put the system
in after the building was done, all hardwire.
All wire for motions, glass, siren and keypad were in the wall
and up thru the attic. Wires for the 2 doors, AC transformer, and
phone were in the crawl space, but tucked up in the floor joist with
the insulation. The Alarm was set at 5:04 that evening, (used the DSC
software to log in the panel to know that), it was disarmed at 8:32 am
the next morning, but at 11:14 that evening, the buffer in the panel
showed a no bell connect.
The way they broke in was, they broke the lock on the metal
panel that goes to the crawl space, got under the place and starting
cutting a hole in the floor and it was just out of view from one of
the motion detectors, they stopped half was thru and then tore out all
the duct work and got in the air return duct in the wall, cut the
drywall out and got in that way. THIS is where it get interesting!
Right where they got in there was a motion detector to their
left about 3 feet above them, facing Away from them across the room,
to their right was the other motion detector facing To them but was
behind a partition wall. A desk was in front of them which blocked
when they cut the drywall so that is why it did not pick them up right
away. But if they went left or right, a motion detector would have
got them. They even started to break in one the desks right in front
of the motion detector!
They went across the room, broke open the other desk and took
the cash box, they went out the same way they came in. When they
called me and I got there, and checked the system, no troble on
keypad, no codes were sent in, phone line untouched, everything worked
perfectly. When I tested it, siren wailed, codes went in, motion
detectors went off even if you just moved your head. What the hell
happend????
Since the siren was in the attic with the only access being
inside the building how can I get a siren disconnected from the panel
when nothing was touched. Even the phone like was normal. Could they
have shorted out something to keep it from working till they left?
All the wires in the crawl look fine but in no was could the siren be
undone from there and the phone line was untouched.
The owner of the place was pretty nice about it, said to add 2
motion detector and he will call it even. He see's that the system
works fine, just not sure why the hell it didnt' when it as suppose
to. This is a first for me and I am shocked to have this happen. Any
ideas about this or if anything like this has ever happend to anyone
before? HELP!
 
G

G. Morgan

Jan 1, 1970
0
alt.security.alarms
Since the siren was in the attic with the only access being
inside the building how can I get a siren disconnected from the panel
when nothing was touched. Even the phone like was normal. Could they
have shorted out something to keep it from working till they left?
All the wires in the crawl look fine but in no was could the siren be
undone from there and the phone line was untouched.


Where is the panel? Is it possible someone with knowledge of security
systems came in, opened the can, disconnected the siren first, then
powered the panel down? In an attempt to be clever, they powered the
system up again upon leaving?
 
M

mikey

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm not familiar with a "no bell connect" on the 1555. What exactly was the
text in the buffer at 11:14? Don't feel that bad, they tripped something.
I'd put some traps in there instead of more detectors. They beat the ones
you had, more isn't a challenge. They'll pee their pants next time when they
pull open the wrong drawer.
 
J

jackcsg

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, I am a small alarm company, have 230 accounts and every
break in that had a system has always worked. This one has me totaly
blown away!
It's a small insurance office 2 doors, 2 motion detectors, one
facing north, one south, with a wall between them, 1 glass breaker,
1555 Panel (632). The office was built 3 weeks ago, I put the system
in after the building was done, all hardwire.
All wire for motions, glass, siren and keypad were in the wall
and up thru the attic. Wires for the 2 doors, AC transformer, and
phone were in the crawl space, but tucked up in the floor joist with
the insulation. The Alarm was set at 5:04 that evening, (used the DSC
software to log in the panel to know that), it was disarmed at 8:32 am
the next morning, but at 11:14 that evening, the buffer in the panel
showed a no bell connect.
The way they broke in was, they broke the lock on the metal
panel that goes to the crawl space, got under the place and starting
cutting a hole in the floor and it was just out of view from one of
the motion detectors, they stopped half was thru and then tore out all
the duct work and got in the air return duct in the wall, cut the
drywall out and got in that way. THIS is where it get interesting!
Right where they got in there was a motion detector to their
left about 3 feet above them, facing Away from them across the room,
to their right was the other motion detector facing To them but was
behind a partition wall. A desk was in front of them which blocked
when they cut the drywall so that is why it did not pick them up right
away. But if they went left or right, a motion detector would have
got them. They even started to break in one the desks right in front
of the motion detector!
They went across the room, broke open the other desk and took
the cash box, they went out the same way they came in. When they
called me and I got there, and checked the system, no troble on
keypad, no codes were sent in, phone line untouched, everything worked
perfectly. When I tested it, siren wailed, codes went in, motion
detectors went off even if you just moved your head. What the hell
happend????
Since the siren was in the attic with the only access being
inside the building how can I get a siren disconnected from the panel
when nothing was touched. Even the phone like was normal. Could they
have shorted out something to keep it from working till they left?
All the wires in the crawl look fine but in no was could the siren be
undone from there and the phone line was untouched.
The owner of the place was pretty nice about it, said to add 2
motion detector and he will call it even. He see's that the system
works fine, just not sure why the hell it didnt' when it as suppose
to. This is a first for me and I am shocked to have this happen. Any
ideas about this or if anything like this has ever happend to anyone
before? HELP!

Nothing is ever perfect. Learn from it. It was more than most likely insider
influenced. At least the owner had enough sense to realize you (the system)
couldn't have physically prevented it.

Jack
 
J

Jim Rojas

Jan 1, 1970
0
How did you program the motion detectors? Also check the event buffer. If
the system was armed in stay mode, and your motions are programmed as
interior follower zones, this would explain alot.

Jim Rojas
 
J

James B

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sure you can arm it stay and leave. But it does take a couple xtra
keypress's rather then your code. One way I have seen people unknowingly arm
a system stay is if they have a bad door contact on the entry door "Stuck
Closed". I have since learned, if it is not a residential job, not to
program the motion detectors as type 5 home/away. Use the interior type
instead. I would look at the event log again and see how the system armed
stay or away.
 
M

Mark Leuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
G. Morgan said:
alt.security.alarms



Where is the panel? Is it possible someone with knowledge of security
systems came in, opened the can, disconnected the siren first, then
powered the panel down? In an attempt to be clever, they powered the
system up again upon leaving?

That would be easy to detect by the event buffer
 
N

Nick Markowitz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Definately sounds like inside job or bad switch on door turned motions off
saw this once before never used the feature again after it happened. luckily
iwas not hit.
other possibility would be if panel was temporarily stuned
by power spike with power flipping on and off several times fast and it
locked it up.have also seen this.


--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
 
N

Nick Markowitz

Jan 1, 1970
0
What was taken this burglary may have been to destroy or cover up funny
buisness going on in the place as well and your the pawn.
we often see this with fires being used to cover up evidence of a buisness
losing money or inside employee theft.

--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
 
N

Nick Markowitz

Jan 1, 1970
0
No you forgot the Ex files answer it was alien space craft
with death laser who disabled it.

--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"
 
N

Norm Mugford

Jan 1, 1970
0
I would check the buffer and find out how the system
was armed....Stay or away mode. I would recommend
having all commercial businesses report a "stay" arming
to the central station and have them contact the
keyholder when armed in the "stay" mode, for verification.

Norm Mugford
 
P

petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, I am a small alarm company, have 230 accounts and every
break in that had a system has always worked. This one has me totaly
blown away!
It's a small insurance office 2 doors, 2 motion detectors, one
facing north, one south, with a wall between them, 1 glass breaker,
1555 Panel (632). The office was built 3 weeks ago, I put the system
in after the building was done, all hardwire.
All wire for motions, glass, siren and keypad were in the wall
and up thru the attic. Wires for the 2 doors, AC transformer, and
phone were in the crawl space, but tucked up in the floor joist with
the insulation. The Alarm was set at 5:04 that evening, (used the DSC
software to log in the panel to know that), it was disarmed at 8:32 am
the next morning, but at 11:14 that evening, the buffer in the panel
showed a no bell connect.
The way they broke in was, they broke the lock on the metal
panel that goes to the crawl space, got under the place and starting
cutting a hole in the floor and it was just out of view from one of
the motion detectors, they stopped half was thru and then tore out all
the duct work and got in the air return duct in the wall, cut the
drywall out and got in that way. THIS is where it get interesting!
Right where they got in there was a motion detector to their
left about 3 feet above them, facing Away from them across the room,
to their right was the other motion detector facing To them but was
behind a partition wall. A desk was in front of them which blocked
when they cut the drywall so that is why it did not pick them up right
away. But if they went left or right, a motion detector would have
got them. They even started to break in one the desks right in front
of the motion detector!
They went across the room, broke open the other desk and took
the cash box, they went out the same way they came in. When they
called me and I got there, and checked the system, no troble on
keypad, no codes were sent in, phone line untouched, everything worked
perfectly. When I tested it, siren wailed, codes went in, motion
detectors went off even if you just moved your head. What the hell
happend????
Since the siren was in the attic with the only access being
inside the building how can I get a siren disconnected from the panel
when nothing was touched. Even the phone like was normal. Could they
have shorted out something to keep it from working till they left?
All the wires in the crawl look fine but in no was could the siren be
undone from there and the phone line was untouched.
The owner of the place was pretty nice about it, said to add 2
motion detector and he will call it even. He see's that the system
works fine, just not sure why the hell it didnt' when it as suppose
to. This is a first for me and I am shocked to have this happen. Any
ideas about this or if anything like this has ever happend to anyone
before? HELP!

this sound like an inside job...

do you have EOL installed? is the panel in the attic too? is there a tamper
switch on if? if so is it on a 24 hr circuit?

too many possibility here...
 
A

alarman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Rojas said:
How did you program the motion detectors? Also check the event buffer. If
the system was armed in stay mode, and your motions are programmed as
interior follower zones, this would explain alot.

Jim Rojas

Good point. This is exactly why I disable the quick-arming on commercial
systems.
js
 
B

BAT

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here is a GOOD question. When you set up the motion detectors, DID you
disable the LED's ??? I know several places I go, and just for fun I
find the buffer or dead spaces.. IT is always good to disble this
light. IF it has been disable, it is NOT to hard to have someone look
at the keypad and find when the zone is faulted and find the dead
spots... Some pannels will show the motion on the pannel.. Anyone who
works for you should not be able to find the dead spots, if so change
the location, and make sure the alarm pannel can mask this durning
normal times.
Another question, who put up the the partition ? Always question when
you see things moved in strange locations, or tape over the sensors
:(..

I can move around my full house and never trip a motion !! Humm, I
can't get in unless I make a whole in the wall... But, thats why I
have a big bad dog.. :)


BAT
 
Thanks everyone for your tips. BTW the panel was in the closet, no
access to the siren from the outside, once the door opens when they
leave it is in away mode, motions are set at 03 Instant and not 05.
I'm still stumped, but just another live and learn lesson I guess.
Thanks again.
 
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