Electric cars

[Eeyore]

Michael wrote:

Imagine a family with two electric cars. 100HP (75kW) engine each -
not too big, is it? On an average workday each driver commutes for on
hour [...]
Do we have an infrastructure to support it?

On average, a car needs nowhere near 75kW. Some 10 to 15kW
should do fine.

That's as idiotic as 200hp ! 0 - 60 in one minute maybe ?

A 20 hp motor driven at 50% overvoltage with a current limited controller
will get a lightweight car

VERY lightweight

up to speed fast enough. At that point you can back off on the
current and the motor be just fine.
I'm running a 2hp 28 volt motor on my gokart. I have a 48 volt battery
pack. When I accelerate it draws over 200 amps. 48 x 200= 9.6kw, of course as
I get up
to speed the amperage drops and the motor does fine.
The point is you can get a lot more power out of the motor for short
bursts.

I know

Maybe even 5 times more.

How do you plan to rate these motors. And beware of going uphill for extended
periods or there'll be an expensive smell.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Michael wrote:

Imagine a family with two electric cars. 100HP (75kW) engine each -
not too big, is it? On an average workday each driver commutes for on
hour [...]
Do we have an infrastructure to support it?
On average, a car needs nowhere near 75kW. Some 10 to 15kW
should do fine.

That's as idiotic as 200hp ! 0 - 60 in one minute maybe ?

ON AVERAGE, dear Sir. On average. I've said nothing about peak power.
Now that we're at it, to get a 1000kg car to, say, 100km/h in 10
seconds would require about 45kW, neglecting friction losses.
Round that up to 50kW. But it would still consume some 10
to 15kW _on average_.

On the flat sure. How about a long uphill 'grade' ? You lose all that
averaging advantage.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Michael wrote:
[...]
Imagine a family with two electric cars. 100HP (75kW) engine each -
not too big, is it? On an average workday each driver commutes for on
hour [...]
Do we have an infrastructure to support it?
On average, a car needs nowhere near 75kW. Some 10 to 15kW
should do fine.

That's as idiotic as 200hp ! 0 - 60 in one minute maybe ?

ON AVERAGE, dear Sir. On average. I've said nothing about peak power.
Now that we're at it, to get a 1000kg car to, say, 100km/h in 10
seconds would require about 45kW, neglecting friction losses.
Round that up to 50kW. But it would still consume some 10
to 15kW _on average_.

Right. I measured my car, and found it uses 11 kW cruising at 112 km/h.

And uphill ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Cars are not used as much on the highway;most auto use is urban.
IMO,that is an important point.

You just explained the US obesity problem.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

It is easy to accomplish "differential" behavior with two motors...
maybe even better than mechanical... think how easy it would be to
implement power to the wheel with traction.

Like TRUE 4 wheel drive ?
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060724.006/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini

More mundane ...
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/bmw-electric-mini-cooper-california.php
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/10/20/bmw_e_mini/

Seats only 2 however.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

The battery can be quite small.

Not if you want it to last or go any distance. Battery life is heavily related to
depth of discharge.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

[email protected] says...>

Here, diesels take big a hit at the pump.

And why is that ?

No thanks.

Think of the torque !


Graham

 

[JosephKK]

CE > And electric cabin heat would really drain a
CE > pack fast, you would probably find some sort
CE > of heat pump arrangement for heating and cooling.

krw > How is the heat pump going to work at -20F?

CE > It would also become common for employers
CE > and cities to have charging stations in the
CE > parking lots. Some of that charge could be
CE > used for 'battery warmers' just like you have
CE > engine warmers today for cold climes.

Opportunities to plug in engine block heaters
are not exactly plentiful in Minnesota.

In the 1980's Northern States Power, the largest
electric utility provider was actually ordered
to disconnect heaters built into sidewalks and
bus shelters to save electricity. This included
the sidewalk around their own building.

Personally I thought the heated sidewalk thing
was a great public safety move.

Ironically, within the last year they redid the
sidewalk and steps outside our courthouse here
in Iowa and they INSTALLED piping for water/steam
heating them. I can easily imagine that this
feature could save a LOT of taxpayers money
when it comes to snow/ice removal AND
you can bet that the decreased LIABILITY
would also be well worth the cost.

For an employer or parking ramp to place an
outlet near a parking space could get to be a
considerable legal liability, not to mention a
problem allocating the considerable energy cost.

[...]

CE > Actually, I expect cities to get into providing
CE > charging stations that double as parking meters!

Going for some MAJOR popularity there!


Jim Yanik

Once you start driving,the heat generated by the electric motor may be used
to provide interior heat.
That doesn't provide for defrosting current for the back window or initial
defrosting of the front.
That's where a hybrid electric auto is more practical.A small gas or diesel
motor will heat up quickly.

You think an electric motor runs hot in a -20 F climate?

You think the heat would be enough to be worth collecting?



[...]

Jim Yanik

A company providing charging outlets essentially is paying for your power
usage.They may not be interested in doing that. I suspect most companies
will not do it for free,or not at all.Just the initial cost of the wiring
and outlets is something I doubt most companies will provide,particularly
in today's business climate.(economics,tight profit margins)

Covered parking may just be the result of city regs requiring employers or
commercial buildings to have enough parking spaces for the employees.Like
making them build a parking garage.

As opposed to a free market, good business model, etc.?

CE > Actually, I expect cities to get into providing charging stations
that
CE > double as parking meters!

JY > They may not be able to afford the installation costs,
JY > and desire to move you into public transpo anyways.

Good point about installation costs.
The wiring of such outlets for that many
cars and for that level of power usage
would not be trivial.

Perhaps at park and ride lots for electric light rail stations?

 

[James Arthur]

Eeyore wrote:
Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Michael wrote:
[...]
Imagine a family with two electric cars. 100HP (75kW) engine each -
not too big, is it? On an average workday each driver commutes for on
hour [...]
Do we have an infrastructure to support it?
On average, a car needs nowhere near 75kW. Some 10 to 15kW
should do fine.
That's as idiotic as 200hp ! 0 - 60 in one minute maybe ?
ON AVERAGE, dear Sir. On average. I've said nothing about peak power.
Now that we're at it, to get a 1000kg car to, say, 100km/h in 10
seconds would require about 45kW, neglecting friction losses.
Round that up to 50kW. But it would still consume some 10
to 15kW _on average_.

Right. I measured my car, and found it uses 11 kW cruising at 112 km/h.

And uphill ?

Graham

Heavy as it is, I calculate about an extra 15kW to climb a 5% grade
at 100km/hr.

Get half from the battery and half from the generator, and Bob's
your uncle.


Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[Charlie E.]

CE > And electric cabin heat would really drain a
CE > pack fast, you would probably find some sort
CE > of heat pump arrangement for heating and cooling.

krw > How is the heat pump going to work at -20F?

CE > It would also become common for employers
CE > and cities to have charging stations in the
CE > parking lots. Some of that charge could be
CE > used for 'battery warmers' just like you have
CE > engine warmers today for cold climes.

Opportunities to plug in engine block heaters
are not exactly plentiful in Minnesota.

In the 1980's Northern States Power, the largest
electric utility provider was actually ordered
to disconnect heaters built into sidewalks and
bus shelters to save electricity. This included
the sidewalk around their own building.

Personally I thought the heated sidewalk thing
was a great public safety move.

Ironically, within the last year they redid the
sidewalk and steps outside our courthouse here
in Iowa and they INSTALLED piping for water/steam
heating them. I can easily imagine that this
feature could save a LOT of taxpayers money
when it comes to snow/ice removal AND
you can bet that the decreased LIABILITY
would also be well worth the cost.

For an employer or parking ramp to place an
outlet near a parking space could get to be a
considerable legal liability, not to mention a
problem allocating the considerable energy cost.

[...]

CE > Actually, I expect cities to get into providing
CE > charging stations that double as parking meters!

Going for some MAJOR popularity there!


Jim Yanik

Once you start driving,the heat generated by the electric motor may be used
to provide interior heat.
That doesn't provide for defrosting current for the back window or initial
defrosting of the front.
That's where a hybrid electric auto is more practical.A small gas or diesel
motor will heat up quickly.

You think an electric motor runs hot in a -20 F climate?

You think the heat would be enough to be worth collecting?



[...]

Jim Yanik

A company providing charging outlets essentially is paying for your power
usage.They may not be interested in doing that. I suspect most companies
will not do it for free,or not at all.Just the initial cost of the wiring
and outlets is something I doubt most companies will provide,particularly
in today's business climate.(economics,tight profit margins)

Covered parking may just be the result of city regs requiring employers or
commercial buildings to have enough parking spaces for the employees.Like
making them build a parking garage.

As opposed to a free market, good business model, etc.?

CE > Actually, I expect cities to get into providing charging stations
that
CE > double as parking meters!

JY > They may not be able to afford the installation costs,
JY > and desire to move you into public transpo anyways.

Good point about installation costs.
The wiring of such outlets for that many
cars and for that level of power usage
would not be trivial.

Perhaps at park and ride lots for electric light rail stations?

Yes, but those are for the little 'smart' type vehicles that are for
the commuters to use to get from the station to their destinations,
rented by the day for cheap.

At least, until you can get self guided vehicles, then they drive you
to work, and then go back to the lot for the next guy...

Charlie

 

[James Arthur]

Not if you want it to last or go any distance. Battery life is heavily related to
depth of discharge.

Graham

Despite the title, we're talking about hybrids. The ICE/generator
provides the run power, batteries are just for peak loads. Like
passing.

Doing that you can optimally load the ICE, doubling its efficiency,
and use a much smaller, lighter ICE to boot.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[Greegor]

Covered parking may just be the result of city regs requiring employers or
G > As opposed to a free market, good business model, etc.?

G > Good point about installation costs.
G > The wiring of such outlets for that many
G > cars and for that level of power usage
G > would not be trivial.

Joseph KK > Perhaps at park and ride lots for electric light rail
stations?

How low would the cost of such cars have to be before
you would feel safe leaving yours at a "park and ride" lot?

Nobody's mentioned the theft/security issues
with these things. Are we going to have battery theft?
Power theft?

Would these things fit into the current system
by which most cars are sold with massive FINANCING?

Whenever I see some fancy shiny hunk of metal
rolling down the streets I am amused at how many
people take pride in WHAT THE BANK OWNS!

Why bitch and whine about gas prices when
most of the cost of operating a car in the USA
involves 200% profit for the bank that finances it?

The cost of a car is only 1/3 or less of what most
people pay for the car, the other 2/3 or more
is FINANCING COSTS!

It's like people buying houses with a mortgage.

Some poor so and so sweats and toils to
build the house and it sells for $100K.
But the buyer pays $300K to buy it.
The bank doesn't sweat, toil or labor but
makes $200K for shuffling paper!

When something like a car costs 300% of
what the hardware price tag says, because
the bank gets 200+% of what the price tag says,
isn't it a bit silly to obsess about the gasoline price?

Is it really "green" to get 60 miles per gallon
if it takes a $150K investment in a Mercedes or BMW?

Is worrying about material costs of cars really
the thing to obsess about when the BANKS
add 200% onto the real cost to a purchaser?

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Michael wrote:
Imagine a family with two electric cars. 100HP (75kW) engine each -
not too big, is it? On an average workday each driver commutes for on
hour [...]
Do we have an infrastructure to support it?
On average, a car needs nowhere near 75kW. Some 10 to 15kW
should do fine.
That's as idiotic as 200hp ! 0 - 60 in one minute maybe ?

ON AVERAGE, dear Sir. On average. I've said nothing about peak power.
Now that we're at it, to get a 1000kg car to, say, 100km/h in 10
seconds would require about 45kW, neglecting friction losses.
Round that up to 50kW. But it would still consume some 10
to 15kW _on average_.

On the flat sure. How about a long uphill 'grade' ? You lose all that
averaging advantage.

Yeah. If you do that often, sure, get the 75kW version. You'll
need bigger batteries too. A long uphill grade sort of implies
a long downhill one on the other side. It would be pity to waste
all that potential energy.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[MooseFET]

And why is that ?


Think of the torque !

Since the max RPM of the diesel is lower, they have to be geared
taller so there is no torque advantage when you are done. With a gas
engine and the right transmission, you can do better.

If you really want a lot of torque at low RPMs, think steam engine. 2
power strokes per rotation vs 0.5 helps a lot.

 

[Eeyore]

Despite the title, we're talking about hybrids. The ICE/generator
provides the run power, batteries are just for peak loads. Like
passing.

Doing that you can optimally load the ICE, doubling its efficiency,
and use a much smaller, lighter ICE to boot.

Someone didn't make that clear. A (P)HEV is an entirely different beast from an EV and
vastly more versatile. It's the technology I'd bet on and pure series at that. Parallel
is over-complex and relatively inefficient.

Graham

 

[James Arthur]

The really scary thing is that some people actually believe all that stuff.

Graham

It's appalling nothing more has been done. I blame Exxon-Mobil and
its shill army of winged-monkeys.

Meanwhile I've wired up a boost converter to harness the power
of my solar calculator to recharge my car's battery. I'm
calling it the "No-plug"(tm) Hybrid--it recharges your car
WHILE you're parked at work!!

It's all so easy--why can't anyone see that?

James Arthur

 

[James Arthur]

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 15:39:53 GMT, James Arthur wrote:


Nevermind that a lead acid battery has a typical leakage current of
35mA.

...Jim Thompson

Naysayer! Denialist!

;-)

James Arthur

 

[James Arthur]

Boost converter? 1 watt in, 10 KW out?
Cool

Damn right it's cool. The solar array pumps out 840uA
short-circuit in direct sun, so input to the booster
is under 2mW. That's what keeps it cool.

Using a flux capacitor and a strangely complicated toroidal
transformer (all free energy gadgets need a toroidal
transformer) wound with PureGold(tm) audiophool wire, that
energy is concentrated into massive charging pulses that
literally blast your battery full of clean green power!

Patents applied for. YMMV. Open other end. Pay no attention
to the man behind the curtain. Objects in the mirror are
dumber than they appear. Offer not available in all states.

Where's that Last-Gas-Station Attendant guy when you need him?

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[krw]

And why is that ?

EPA, and various state authorities.

Think of the torque !

That's what transmissions are for.

 

[Richard The Dreaded Libertarian]

You just explained the US obesity problem.

Naaah - the obesity epidemic is caused by antismokerism.

Cheers!
Rich