EOL's

A

ABLE_1

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well I almost left it on the bottom of the panel, that would have caused
additional grief sometime in the future. As it was it ended up in the
nearest circular file. I did take a close look at it with my
N-A-K-E-D_E-Y-E and it looked very normal as resistors go. I didn't have my
pocket electron microscope with me at the time to do further analysis. When
it happens so infrequently it tends to make a person go Hmmmmmmm and then
get on with life.
So here is my: Hmmmmmmmm????

BTW did anyone notice???? This was a very nice thread.
My thanks to all that contributed in this discussion.

May peace and joy be with you and yours. Also may you have some adequate
profit be in your future.

(the short version) >>> Live long and Prosper.

Les
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
No Robert, the tolerance of a resistor applies to the percentage that
it may deviate from it's rating. And then all the other issues I
mentioned can apply. Carbon will change over time, especially when
subjected to heat and humidity. The tolerance applies to the
percentage of deviation from the value shown on the resistor. You know
what I meant.

Al
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
No Robert, the tolerance of a resistor applies to the percentage that
it may deviate from it's rating...

No, Al. The percentage of deviation is a manufacturing issue.
The resistor will remain at whatever it was when it was made for
time immemorial. Tolerance is not an indicator of the resistor's
propensity to change value over time (as you originally stated).
And then all the other issues I mentioned can apply.

No, Al. The issue where you first stumbled was your
understanding (or rather your lack thereof) of what the tolerance
is. Tolerance is an indication of the greatest amount that the
resistor may differ from its stated value when it is made.
Carbon will change over time, especially when
subjected to heat and humidity.

The heat needed to significantly alter the value of a carbon film
resistor would be sufficient to ignite the house. As to
humidity, that's another area you don't seem to understand.
Carbon film resistors are not absorbent. The shell is sealed.
Humidity won't affect the inside of the resistor because it isn't
exposed.
The tolerance applies to the percentage of deviation from
the value shown on the resistor...

At the time of manufacture -- NOT over the lifetime of the
resistor in a circuit.
You know what I meant...

I know what you think you mean. I also know you're completely
wrong about tolerance. I suggest you study the matter a while.
Then come back and correct yourself.

Of course, you can also take the ASA-standard approach and make
up "anecdotal evidence" of non-existent field experience with
ever-changing resistors, punctuated with personal insults and the
usual ASA stupidity. If you're unsure how to proceed with that
technique, contact Olson. It's his area of expertise.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, Al. The percentage of deviation is a manufacturing issue.
The resistor will remain at whatever it was when it was made for
time immemorial. Tolerance is not an indicator of the resistor's
propensity to change value over time (as you originally stated).

How much experience do you really have at servicing electronic systems,
Robert? I was trained as an associate engineer in electronics, the man
between the engineers and the manufacturing floor. My experience also
includes the manufacturing and repair of X-ray equipment as well as all
kinds of analogue and digital electronic systems. I worked as a NuTone
Service Center as well as other manufacturers.

Your assessment of the "resistor" is not practical but rather
theoretical. Humidity and temperature most definitely play a major
part in the stability of carbon in a resistor. This is one of the most
fundamental facts taught in electronic school in lab. It's also one of
the facts you are bound to discover when servicing electronic systems
on the work bench. Exposure to lightning is also another factor, but
only because of the heat that such an intense current will cause inside
the carbon of a resistor component.

Al
 
C

Chub

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L Bass said:
No, Al. The percentage of deviation is a manufacturing issue.
The resistor will remain at whatever it was when it was made for
time immemorial.


obviously not
numbnut
or the OP would not have posted his question.
 
C

Chub

Jan 1, 1970
0
He's just trying to be a thorn, Al. Don't let him get under your skin. He
also 'says' he didn't believe in the green corrosion that sometimes gets on
resistors and can affect their operation and cause them to break.
As you say his knowledge is purely theoretical, no real life experience
outside of the slammer.
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
I know what you think you mean. I also know you're completely
wrong about tolerance. I suggest you study the matter a while.
Then come back and correct yourself.

I don't mean to belittle you as you are obviously trying to do to me,
but you really show how little practical field or bench repair
experience you have when you say that high temperatures, combined with
high humidity cannot affect resistance in a carbon resistor.

Although it may not be common for a field resistor to change value
based on high ambient heat and high levels of humidity, it can and does
happen in the real world. To tell anyone that this is not so is doing
them a disservice. Also, perhaps this man's resistor suffered an
induced high current due to a nearby lighting strike, in which case the
excessive heat caused by the high current could have super heated the
carbon, causing its properties to change.

What I've told him I stand behind from both my electronic training and
my experience in the field, which includes 4 years of schooling, 18
years of field experience, and more than 15 years of work in trade
journalism working with the men and women who work in the field in
security. I also hold a technican's class amateur radio license,
KC80CV.

I stand behind my statement 100% unless someone else who has some real
engineering knowledge can step up and refer me to an on-line source of
information that says, as you have, that temperature and humidity,
combined with time, cannot change the value of a carbon resistor.
That's my final word until that day comes.

Al
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
I know he is trying very hard to yank my chain. I can see why so many
of you truly tire of him. He's attacked me several times in this news
group and I've tried to be a gentleman about it by not responding in
kind. I don't play games with people, but he can sure stretch one's
composure. :)

Back in the 90s I had asked him to do a sidebar on power supplies for
one of my technical stories when I was with SDM Magazine. He said he
would do it and so I continued on my other work. I contacted him
several times about the issue and he continued to insist that he would
get it to me. When we came down to crunch time I called him and he
said he hadn't done it yet. When I pressed him he became angry and
stated that he always knew I had other people do my work for me. I
told him promptly that I can write the thing myself but was only trying
to give him some exposure in SDM. I hung up and promptly wrote the
darn thing myself in 10 minutes time. Since then, he's tried to cause
others to question my technical knowledge in this news group. He's
certainly a card, is he not? :)

Thanks for the return comment.

Al
 
C

Chub

Jan 1, 1970
0
Al Colombo said:
I know he is trying very hard to yank my chain. I can see why so many
of you truly tire of him. He's attacked me several times in this news
group and I've tried to be a gentleman about it by not responding in
kind. I don't play games with people, but he can sure stretch one's
composure. :)

Back in the 90s I had asked him to do a sidebar on power supplies for
one of my technical stories when I was with SDM Magazine. He said he
would do it and so I continued on my other work. I contacted him
several times about the issue and he continued to insist that he would
get it to me. When we came down to crunch time I called him and he
said he hadn't done it yet. When I pressed him he became angry and
stated that he always knew I had other people do my work for me. I
told him promptly that I can write the thing myself but was only trying
to give him some exposure in SDM. I hung up and promptly wrote the
darn thing myself in 10 minutes time. Since then, he's tried to cause
others to question my technical knowledge in this news group. He's
certainly a card, is he not? :)

Thanks for the return comment.

Al

Don't feel too bad, as you know ; No good deed goes unpunished.
A card, yea that's one way of putting it.
I wonder where that expression came from, "he's a card" ?
 
A

Allan Waghalter

Jan 1, 1970
0
It is not terribly unusual to find an EOL on a fireloop that has drifted far
enough out of specs so as to cause a loop trouble or a short.
 
M

Mark Leuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
I used to run into that all the time with DSC 1550's

Allan Waghalter said:
It is not terribly unusual to find an EOL on a fireloop that has drifted far
enough out of specs so as to cause a loop trouble or a short.
 
A

ABLE_1

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK!!! OK!! Ok!

As the Original Poster on this topic I was hoping that this would have been
simple calm discussion.
But NOOOOO!!

You guys amaze me to no end. Therefore I did what I was trying to avoid and
did a Google search to try and find the answer to my question. After
searching on [resistor value tolerance] I received 446,000 hits. I did not
read them all, nor did I find my answer, but I did find some supporting
information on both sides of the fence. Could it be that everybody is
RIGHT????

I have included some of my findings below. You can all read to your hearts
content and try and find the part that may support your own special
thoughts.

Personally I am moving on to more important issues of the day, like What's
for Lunch.

Please find some of the research below.

Have a nice day and a better tomorrow.

Les

==========================================================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolerance_(engineering)
Tolerance (engineering)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Tolerance in engineering is an allowance, given as a permissible range, in
the nominal dimension or value specification of a manufactured object. The
purpose of a tolerance is to specify the allowed leeway for imperfections in
manufacturing the part or component.

The tolerance may be specified as a factor or percentage of the nominal
value, a maximum deviation from a nominal value, an explicit range of
allowed values, be specified by a note or published standard with this
information, or be implied by the numeric accuracy of the nominal value.
Tolerance can be symmetrical, as in 40±0.1, or asymmetrical, such as
40+0.2/-0.1.

It is good engineering practice to specify the largest possible tolerance
while maintaining proper functionality, since closer or tighter tolerances
are more difficult to manufacture and hence cost more to either build or
buy.

Tolerance is different from safety factor, but an adequate safety factor
will take into account relevant tolerances as well as other possible
variations.

[edit]
Electrical component tolerance
An electrical specification might call for a resistor with a nominal value
of 100? (ohms), but will also state a tolerance such as "±1%". This means
that any resistor with a value in the range 99? to 101? is acceptable. It
would not be reasonable to specify a resistor with a value of exactly 100?
in any case, because the exact resistance will vary with temperature,
current and other factors beyond the control of the designer.


http://www.southwest.com.au/~jfuller/electronics/resistors.htm
Resistors are constructed to provide predetermined resistances. Most common
resistors are guaranteed to be within 5% of their marked value.
('Metal-oxide' resistors with a blue body are guaranteed to meet their
marked value plus, or minus 1%.)


http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter1/1q.htm
Although you may find any of the above colors in the third band, red,
orange, and yellow are the most common. In some cases, the third band will
be silver or gold. You multiply the first two bands by 0.01 if it is silver,
and 0.1 if it is gold. The fourth band, which is the tolerance band,
usually does not present too much of a problem. If there is no fourth band,
the resistor has a 20-percent tolerance; a silver fourth band indicates a
10-percent tolerance; and a gold fourth band indicates a 5-percent
tolerance. Resistors that conform to military specifications have a fifth
band. The fifth band indicates the reliability level per 1,000 hours of
operation.


http://www.mycableshop.com/techarticles/ResCodes.htm
Resistors come in standard values such as 1K, 2.2K, 4.7K, and so on. Why
these values? Consider a range of resistors with a 10% tolerance. The
resistors are designed with values such that a 10% variance of one resistor
would meet or overlap with the 10% variance of the next resistance value.

To clarify, the 10% tolerance range for a 1K resistor would be 0.9K to 1.1K.
So the next resistor value going up the scale would be 1.2K since it's 10%
tolerance range would be 1.08K to 1.32K. The lower end of the tolerance
range for the 1.2K overlaps a little with the upper end of the range for the
1K.

In the case of a range of resistors with a 5% tolerance, there would have to
be more unique values to allow for overlap. Starting with the 1K resistor,
the next resistor value up the scale would have to be 1.1K to allow for an
overlap. Resistors with a 20% tolerance on the other hand would have bigger
jumps between values. Starting with the 1K resistor, the next value up the
scale would be 1.5K. In this case, the upper value for a 1K would be 1.2K,
while the lower value for a 1.5K would be 1.2K.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor
Preferred values
Standard resistors are manufactured in values from a few milliohms to about
a gigohm; only a limited range of values called preferred values are
available. In practice, the discrete component sold as a "resistor" is not a
perfect resistance, as defined above. Resistors are often marked with their
tolerance (maximum expected variation from the marked resistance). On color
coded resistors the color of the rightmost band denotes the tolerance:

silver 10%
gold 5%
red 2%
brown 1%.
Closer tolerance resistors, called precision resistors, are also available.

[edit]
5-band axial resistors
5-band identification is used for higher tolerance resistors (1%, 0.5%,
0.25%, 0.1%), to notate the extra digit. The first three bands represent the
significant digits, the fourth is the multiplier, and the fifth is the
tolerance. 5-band standard tolerance resistors are sometimes encountered,
generally on older or specialized resistors. They can be identified by
noting a standard tolerance color in the 4th band. The 5th band in this case
is the temperature coefficient.

http://www.electronic-circuits-diagrams.com/tutorials/resistors.shtml
Tolerance is the extent to which the resistor value sways from the original
value. You may think as to why the resistance value should change from the
printed value? Well, we live in a world that is far from perfect and
resistors are no exceptions. Their value changes mainly due to the change in
temperature.
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
Of course, you can also take the ASA-standard approach and make
up "anecdotal evidence" of non-existent field experience with
ever-changing resistors, punctuated with personal insults and the
usual ASA stupidity. If you're unsure how to proceed with that
technique, contact Olson. It's his area of expertise.


You mean like you just did??
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
I agree, but it's more rare when you use low-tolerance or precision
resistors. Those who use 20% resistors are more likely to find this
kind of situation. Most of the time such drift is not excessive and
out of a panel's ability to forgive. Sometimes it can be a problem,
for sure.

Al
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
Les,

I only gave you the benefit of my years in the field and my electronic
training. I don't really care who is right so long as you get the
right answer.

It's like james bond said many years ago, "never say never" :)
Anyway, thanks for the information. Hope you solved your problem, hope
you figured out why the EOL did that to your satisfaction. If I can
ever be of assistance, just send me an e-mail.

Al
 
D

Doug L

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is RLB doing what he does best, he takes a statement from a
poster, distorts it, deliberately misquotes it and attempts to ridicule the
original poster while at the same time trying to impress others with his
newgooglefound knowledge.
The bottom line is that the value of a resistor can change over a period of
time, even someone as obtuse as RLB should be able to understand that if you
start with a resistor that is 20% off its nominal value, it will take less
of a change to put its value outside the tolerance range of the control
panel than a resistor that starts off within 5% of its nominal value. This
in a nutshell is what I believe Al originally meant in the first place.


Doug L
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is this in a commercial structure where there is lots of metal?
Second, is the switch part of an opening that is rarely used?

Al
 
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