Fire Alarm System Inspections. How and how much?

[Paul Brewington]

What do you check for when doing a routine yearly inspection. How do
you price it out? I have never done this and I now see the error of
my ways. I need to get a program started and would like some
guidence. Thanks PAul.

 

[jewellfish]

Sorry, but I am a bit confused. . .are you a building owner looking to
have a facility inspected? or a person who wants to start doing fire
alarm inspections?

If your a building owner, easist thing would be to call a couple
companies to get quotes (Fire Marshall in your area can probably give
you a few names.

If your a alarm company owner and you are wanting to start doing fire
alarm inspections--Stop. Hire someone who has, at least, a level 2
NICET certification in Fire alarm technologies. You realize these are
LIFE-SAFETY systems. You can't wake up one morning and decide "I'm
gonna start inspection fire alarms, today."

If you still feel like this is something you want to do, memorize NFPA
72. Then, you will, at least, have an idea of what questions you need
to be asking.

Cheers

 

[Paul Brewington]

OK, Heres the scoop. I am an alarm company. Been in business 10+
years. I have only installed about 15 systems. Just too busy
doing other things to go back and inspect. Yes I do have a fire alarm
license issued in this state. No I do not have a nicet certification.

Here's the situation, The area these systems are in were never
required to be inspected. Now they require a yearly inspection. So
now other companies are inspecting the systems and seem to be charging
a very hefty fee. Since I have the monitoring on these systems, I
know this is happening. Other companies are having the owner to put
the system in test and call back for the results.

It just annoys me that I sold and still service the panel, but someone
else makes more money on the inspection than I do on the monitoring.

 

[Norm Mugford]

Excellent comments Jim......I agree

Norm Mugford

Before all the licensing and Nicet requirements, I use to do fire
inspections for 200+ customers in my area. I followed NFPA guidelines to
the letter, before anyone else in my area did. I charged a decent rate,
$150 flat fee for a small daycare, ALF, etc...$300+ for an apt complex or
small office complex...life was good.

After I tallyed all the local fees, licensing, Nicet requirements and
courses, etc...I decided that it was a huge waste of time trying to keep
this going. I would have to triple my nominal $150 fee just to stay in
business. Plus all the courses and useless continuing education classes
that never end, made me feel like I was going back to school for the rest
of my life. So I stopped doing fire altogether.

Shortly afterwards, I stopped doing new burg installations, in favor of
takeovers. Which makes more economic sense. Builders in my area expected
me to do full prewires on new construction for $300, in hope that the
homeowner would give me a bread crumb and have me complete the alarm
installation for a $500 fixed fee. Then I find out the builders are
reselling the $300 prewire for $1200-1500, and $3000-5000 for a completed
system direct to the homeowner. So until a builder is required to carry an
alarm license on such an upsell, I refuse to do them anymore.

Afterall, licensed electrical contractors are now required to have a
seperate fire license. For years these guys gave the industry a huge black
eye with their shoddy installation practices. And even with these new
guidelines, most electrical contractors in my area just don't have a clue.
But, they have a license that says they do...go figure. I believe that if
one person is required to have a license, so should they all. I mean all
employees, service techs, sales perople...let's clean up this mess.

Companies like Ranger Amercian, though they do excellent work for the most
part, hurt the industry with their low ball prewires. Their employees earn
close to minimum wage, no overtime, and must work 3 Saturdays a month.
Most of them are foriegn immigrants, They are forced to drive their own
vehicles, and are poorly compensated. I feel Ranger takes advantage of
their situation, but that's my opinion. I believe that the state labor
board already fined Ranger Amercian numerous times for violating state
labor laws, but yet it still goes on...

Thank you for letting me vent a bit.

Jim Rojas

I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html

 

[ABLE_1]

Jim,

I feel your pain.

Les

Before all the licensing and Nicet requirements, I use to do fire
inspections for 200+ customers in my area. I followed NFPA guidelines to
the letter, before anyone else in my area did. I charged a decent rate,
$150 flat fee for a small daycare, ALF, etc...$300+ for an apt complex or
small office complex...life was good.

After I tallyed all the local fees, licensing, Nicet requirements and
courses, etc...I decided that it was a huge waste of time trying to keep
this going. I would have to triple my nominal $150 fee just to stay in
business. Plus all the courses and useless continuing education classes
that never end, made me feel like I was going back to school for the rest
of my life. So I stopped doing fire altogether.

Shortly afterwards, I stopped doing new burg installations, in favor of
takeovers. Which makes more economic sense. Builders in my area expected
me to do full prewires on new construction for $300, in hope that the
homeowner would give me a bread crumb and have me complete the alarm
installation for a $500 fixed fee. Then I find out the builders are
reselling the $300 prewire for $1200-1500, and $3000-5000 for a completed
system direct to the homeowner. So until a builder is required to carry an
alarm license on such an upsell, I refuse to do them anymore.

Afterall, licensed electrical contractors are now required to have a
seperate fire license. For years these guys gave the industry a huge black
eye with their shoddy installation practices. And even with these new
guidelines, most electrical contractors in my area just don't have a clue.
But, they have a license that says they do...go figure. I believe that if
one person is required to have a license, so should they all. I mean all
employees, service techs, sales perople...let's clean up this mess.

Companies like Ranger Amercian, though they do excellent work for the most
part, hurt the industry with their low ball prewires. Their employees earn
close to minimum wage, no overtime, and must work 3 Saturdays a month.
Most of them are foriegn immigrants, They are forced to drive their own
vehicles, and are poorly compensated. I feel Ranger takes advantage of
their situation, but that's my opinion. I believe that the state labor
board already fined Ranger Amercian numerous times for violating state
labor laws, but yet it still goes on...

Thank you for letting me vent a bit.

Jim Rojas

 

[ABLE_1]

Paul,

You should have a clause in your contract that states no one shall service
the system other than you or your authorized servicing company. Think
liability.

Also change the cabinet locks and don't give the customer a key.

 

[Bill]

Basically you want to be sure all devices work. Batteries are OK. Signals
are sent as they should be including trouble and zone signals. For smoke
detector type devices, test per manufacturer's instructions.

But beware...

High rise buildings have the fire alarm tied into the elevators. All
elevators are sent to the 1st floor when the fire alarm trips. The building
manager will not be happy if you trip the alarm and leave all the elevators
on the 1st floor for 15 minutes! (Needs to be tested, then bypassed for
further testing of system.)

Also some fire sprinkler "flow detector" switches are also tied into the
main electrical circuit breaker. If you open a test valve (which simulates
one sprinkler head popping), then the flow switch trips, it activates the
alarm *and* trips the main building breaker! (If it is a grocery store and
they have a lot of compressors for refrigeration, they will not be happy.)

Basically know the entire system and what is connected to what before
testing. Know how to properly test smoke detection devices per the
manufacturer.

In the past I have found smoke detectors which did not work and needed
replacement and frequently batteries need replacement.

 

[Bob La Londe]

OK, Heres the scoop. I am an alarm company. Been in business 10+
years. I have only installed about 15 systems. Just too busy
doing other things to go back and inspect. Yes I do have a fire alarm
license issued in this state. No I do not have a nicet certification.

Here's the situation, The area these systems are in were never
required to be inspected. Now they require a yearly inspection. So
now other companies are inspecting the systems and seem to be charging
a very hefty fee. Since I have the monitoring on these systems, I
know this is happening. Other companies are having the owner to put
the system in test and call back for the results.

It just annoys me that I sold and still service the panel, but someone
else makes more money on the inspection than I do on the monitoring.

That may not exactly be the case. I know of one or two sprinkler companies
that basically go door to door offering free inspection of sprinkler and
fire systems, and then make a list of reccomended repairs and upgrades. Its
a sales tactic.

 

[Bob La Londe]

I can't quite picture how that works. Generally speaking if you are
required to have a fire alarm, most times it must be monitored and under
an inspection contract where we are. If the end user has any warranty on a
system, a third party involvement might void that. If the customer knows
he has a bad system what would be his motivation to let them inspect? Here
you have to turn in red tags to the state and the AHJ. Best thing the
customer could hope for is to lose his CO for free.
Who has time for that anyway? Most of the time it is all you can do to
inspect what is out there under contract already.

They are doing it.

 

[news.comcast.net]

Also some fire sprinkler "flow detector" switches are also tied into the

main electrical circuit breaker. If you open a test valve (which simulates
one sprinkler head popping), then the flow switch trips, it activates the
alarm *and* trips the main building breaker!

Hmm. That's one I've never seen. How and why would one wire the building
mains to the fire panel? I've connected commercial fire alarms to shut down
HVAC air handlers but the air handlers start up again as soon a the test is
complete. It's best to stick around and check to be sure it restarts
though.

Whatever you do during testing, always inform people on site first so they
don't panic.

One person mentioned NICET certification. In some locales that is a
requirement. Other places, the license is all you need. As to continuing
education, if you plan to stay in business, it's a wise investment. I don't
install any more. I only sell online, but I take manufacturer training
courses at trade shows every year to stay on top of new technology. In Jim
Rojas' case it was a business decision to disengage from certain aspects of
the trade and there is nothing wrong with that. But if you do wish to tap
into what can be a lucrative market, ignore Mugford and definitekly take all
the related CEU classes you can.

--
Regards,
Robert L Bass

========================>
Bass Home Electronics
Online DIY Alarm & Automation Store
941-866-1100
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
=========================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

It's called a shunt trip breaker. I did a fire

alarm system at a night club that required
all power for certain devices or areas to
be shutdown. I don't remember the specifics.
I do remember that the DJ booth & sound
system would be shutdown, besides the
normal shutdown of all HVAC.

It makes sense to shut down the sound system. An evax system we installed in a church was rigged to override the sanctuary audio
system though it didn't kill power to the sound booth. It cut out the amps.

You do this to make certain the audible alarms are heard. But shutting down the building mains? I don't think so.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Doug]

Elevators should be recalled by smoke detectors in the elevator lobbies,
equipment room and elevator shafts, not a general fire alarm.

Doug

 

[Mark Leuck]

What if the fire is on the first floor?

Well then there's this old saying...

Help a man start a fire and he's warm for a day, set a man on fire and he's
warm for the rest of his life

 

[Doug]

I don't what AHJ would require that, What happens when the fire is on the
first floor ? The doors open and deliver the occupants directly into the
fire, no that's not how its supposed to work, the recall is initiated by
designated smoke detectors and will recall the car to the designated or
alternate floors depending on the smoke detector activated.

My understanding is that its specifically prohibited to initiate elevator
recall either by non-elevator building smokes or a general fire alarm.

Doug
--

 

[Doug]

Contrary to my statement that's its prohibited to initiate recall by
non-elevator smokes, NFPA 72 allows the AHJ to specify otherwise and
ANSI/ASME seem to allow other devices as permitted by NFPA 72.

Doug

 

[Just Some Guy]

Elevator recall in my area is controlled by ANSI/ASME code and tested by the
state elevator inspectors. However, an AHJ can require whatever he wants.
If he wants a general alarm to recall elevators, then he gets it. The state
elevator inspector is testing lobbies, shaft and equipment room devices and
he doesn't care what else recalls the elevator. Remember that what code
requires is a MINIMUM requirement and the AHJ is free to require more if
they so desire.

As far as duct detectors, code allows them to be programmed as a supervisory
device but they MUST shut down their associated air handler on alarm. I
have several towns where the local officials insist that they be programmed
as supervisory. Not all addressable fire panels support smoke detectors as
supervisories, so this sometimes becomes a problem for us.

My 2 cents.

 

[Robert L Bass]

Elevator recall in my area is controlled by ANSI/ASME code and tested by the state elevator inspectors. However, an AHJ can

require whatever he wants. If he wants a general alarm to recall elevators, then he gets it. The state elevator inspector is
testing lobbies, shaft and equipment room devices and he doesn't care what else recalls the elevator. Remember that what code
requires is a MINIMUM requirement and the AHJ is free to require more if they so desire.

As far as duct detectors, code allows them to be programmed as a supervisory device but they MUST shut down their associated air
handler on alarm. I have several towns where the local officials insist that they be programmed as supervisory. Not all
addressable fire panels support smoke detectors as supervisories, so this sometimes becomes a problem for us.

My 2 cents.

That was more like your $1000 worth. The above is completely accurate.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Bob Worthy]

Yeah - I've done movie theaters with that, shutdown the projectors and
sound plus turned on the house lights.

Kitchen hood systems also use shunts to turn off the hood fans.

Shunts are used for alot of different things in different occupancies. One
that catches my guys every once and awhile is we have a Lexus dealership and
when they do the body shop the paint booths shut down. They are at the other
end of the body shop in a separate area. They can always tell because the
painters come out screamin. Ooops! We try to do after hours but no one wants
to pay anymore. OK, lets kill two birds and use it as a fire drill. This is
good for some occupancys, especially at day cares.

 

[Bob Worthy]

Elevators should be recalled by smoke detectors in the elevator lobbies,
equipment room and elevator shafts, not a general fire alarm.

Doug

And they do not "always" go the first floor. This is all controlled with the
newer generation systems.

 

[FIRETEK]

How long has it been since the last inspection?
You're probably in for at least a 100% system check, cleaning and maybe bi
annual obscuration test. You'd better know what your scope of work requires
before trying to figure a price. Don't forget a lift if necessary or after
hours charges etc.

Your "yearly inspection" must have a proscribed format (you need inspection
forms). NFPA would no doubt be able to give you some direction as well as
the local AHJ. You must know the equipment (and I don't mean which buttons
to push to "lamp test" or "reset"). Most fire alarm systems are integrated
to key building equipment like fire pumps, elevators, generators, air
handling units, floor dampers, stairwell pressurization, etc. If you don't
know what to look for during your inspection you won't be able to properly
sign off on the equipment as being "safe" or operating normally (or within
Code). Get yourself a copy of the local building codes, NFPA, and be
familiar with local bylaws and ordinances which might affect the system.
Get yourself involved with any local fire prevention organization. You can
pick up a lot there. Download equipment manuals at the manufacturer's
websites (Notifier, FireLite, Edwards - now GE Security, Simplex/Grinnel -
now Tyco, Siemens). Around here (Vancouver, B. C.), fire inspections
involve a good deal more than just the Fire Alarm System. Hoses,
extinguishers, sprinkler systems, fire pumps, fixed extinguishing systems
(engineered systems), etc. all require annual testing and service.

Most importantly, check with your insurance agent. Let him know what you're
planning to do and be aware that signing off on some of the buildings you
might be called in to inspect could expose you to levels of liability your
present carrier may not wish to be exposed to.

Let me know if you'd like to look at some of the forms we use. I can email
them to you or upload them to our website for you to view.