Floating current source

F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tony said:
I'll stick my neck out to get the discussion going.
Assuming the OP needs an AC sinewave current stimulus.

+---|>|---+---+---------+
| D1 | | |
| | )+ \
| | )sec1 /R1
| | )- \
| +| | D2 |
| C1=== +---|>|---+
| | | |
| | | |/e
| | '-------|PNP Q1
| | |\c
+ | | |
)|| | | +------>
)|| | +sec3- | | Iout
pri)|| +-//////--+-----/-------------->
)|| | | ======CT |
)|| | <--------+////+ |
+ | CT | | |
| <-------------' |/c
| | ,-------|NPN Q2
| | | |\e
| +| | D3 |
| C2=== +---|<|---+
| | | |
| | )- \
| | )sec2 /R2
| | )+ \
| D4 | | |
+--|<|----+---+---------+

It's a transformer with a pri and 3x secs. Two of the
secs (1 and 2) each drive a common base transistor,
PNP and NPN to provide alternating-polarity half-sine
output currents. The pri is voltage-driven by some
unspecified amplifier.

The main sec (sec3) delivers the total output power
needed for the PNP or NPN stages, plus the Vpk/Ipk
required by the unknown load. sec3 output is phased
with the sec1 and sec2 so that each stage is powered
up during each respective half-sine.

D1 and D4 prevent reverse currents flowing when
either transistor stage has a reverse voltage
across it. C1/C2 provide a small amount of dc
bias across a transistor stage at the start of
each half-sine.

Because it is a relatively open loop circuit it
would be prudent to measure the actual ac output
current and factor it's value (and actual shape)
into the unknown resistance calculation. A small
current-transformer (CT) provides this signal.

Okay- well I'll throw in my 10lbs of confusion over just exactly what
he's doing. This is STP or Scanning Tunneling Potentiometry which is a
variant on ST-Microscopy used to acquire "new insight into the local
electronic transport properties on the nanometer scale." The
conventional STM works by servoing a z-axis piezo positioner so as to
maintain a constant tip-sample tunneling current- which then ensures the
tip-sample separation, d, is a constant- and this gives incredibly high
resolution of a surface topography on the pico-meter scale through
measurement of z-axis variation. The tip-sample bias is also maintained
during this scan . A second variation is to vary this bias and acquire
the small perturbations in tip tunneling current to infer certain things
like "electronic density of states" and a bunch of other atomic
characteristics. So the thing looks like this:
View in a fixed-width font such as Courier.

STP acquires surface topography and potential distribution
of current flow through sample....


precise determination of
atomic topography dimension z
as tip scans x-y dimensions

feedback piezo positioner
tunneling CCS regulating I constant
+-----------+ tip
+----+ I tip--> |-----+ maintains constant d
| +-----------+ | between tip and sample
| |
| | I ~ exp(-Kappa x d)
| | tip
| | Kappa= decay constant
| z | function electron state energy
| | y TIP levels
| | / ^
| | / | Itip also =I ( Vtip-sample)
| +-----x d tip
| | <--on order several atomic diams
| v
| +---------------------+ <-----
| | | Isample
| +---| S A M P L E |----------+
| | | | |
| | +---------------------+ |
| | <------V (Isample)--- |
| | x |
| | |
| | |
| | ADJ SAMPLE |
| | BIAS FOR Isample |
| | _ |
| | | /| |
| +-------------| |/ ------------------+
| | /| |
| | / |
| | |
| | |
| +----------/\/\/\/\/\/\--------------+
| /|\
| | set reference for V(x)
| | |
+---------||------------+
| |
| Vtip,bias
---
/// tip bias voltage applied through resistor bridge

bridge adjusted for zero local potential between

tip and sample - then variation of Itip vs V (Isample)
x,y
can be acquired.
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Bloggs wrote:

A Google-proof diagram:
View in a fixed-width font such as Courier.

..
..
..
..
.. STP acquires surface topography and potential distribution
.. of current flow through sample....
..
..
.. precise determination of
.. atomic topography dimension z
.. as tip scans x-y dimensions
..
.. feedback piezo positioner
.. tunneling CCS regulating I constant
.. +-----------+ tip
.. +----+ I tip--> |-----+ maintains constant d
.. | +-----------+ | between tip and sample
.. | |
.. | | I ~ exp(-Kappa x d)
.. | | tip
.. | | Kappa= decay constant
.. | z | function electron state energy
.. | | y TIP levels
.. | | / ^
.. | | / | Itip also =I ( Vtip-sample)
.. | +-----x d tip
.. | | <--on order several atomic diams
.. | v
.. | +---------------------+ <-----
.. | | | Isample
.. | +---| S A M P L E |----------+
.. | | | | |
.. | | +---------------------+ |
.. | | <------V (Isample)--- |
.. | | x |
.. | | |
.. | | |
.. | | ADJ SAMPLE |
.. | | BIAS FOR Isample |
.. | | _ |
.. | | | /| |
.. | +-------------| |/ ------------------+
.. | | /| |
.. | | / |
.. | | |
.. | | |
.. | +----------/\/\/\/\/\/\--------------+
.. | /|\
.. | | set reference for V(x)
.. | | |
.. +---------||------------+
.. | |
.. | Vtip,bias
.. ---
.. /// tip bias voltage applied through resistor bridge
..
.. bridge adjusted for zero local potential between
..
.. tip and sample - then variation of Itip vs V (Isample)
.. x,y
.. can be acquired.
..
..
..
..
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred said:
Fred Bloggs wrote:

A Google-proof diagram:
View in a fixed-width font such as Courier.

.
.
.
.
. STP acquires surface topography and potential distribution
. of current flow through sample....
.
.
. precise determination of
. atomic topography dimension z
. as tip scans x-y dimensions
.
. feedback piezo positioner
. tunneling CCS regulating I constant
. +-----------+ tip
. +----+ I tip--> |-----+ maintains constant d
. | +-----------+ | between tip and sample
. | |
. | | I ~ exp(-Kappa x d)
. | | tip
. | | Kappa= decay constant
. | z | function electron state energy
. | | y TIP levels
. | | / ^
. | | / | Itip also =I ( Vtip-sample)
. | +-----x d tip
. | | <--on order several atomic diams
. | v
. | +---------------------+ <-----
. | | | Isample
. | +---| S A M P L E |----------+
. | | | | |
. | | +---------------------+ |
. | | <------V (Isample)--- |
. | | x |
. | | |
. | | |
. | | ADJ SAMPLE |
. | | BIAS FOR Isample |
. | | _ |
. | | | /| |
. | +-------------| |/ ------------------+
. | | /| |
. | | / |
. | | |
. | | |
. | +----------/\/\/\/\/\/\--------------+
. | /|\
. | | set reference for V(x)
. | | |
. +---------||------------+
. | |
. | Vtip,bias
. ---
. /// tip bias voltage applied through resistor bridge
.
. bridge adjusted for zero local potential between
.
. tip and sample - then variation of Itip vs V (Isample)
. x,y
. can be acquired.
.
.
.
.

I think that in Vx,y(Isample) mode- the instrument is servoing Vtip,bias
in order to maintain Itip constant and also tip potential at virtual
ground- but I can't be sure because of the ambiguous non-technical
descriptions at hand.
 
T

Tony Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan Panteltje said:
OK, if we go this way, you have some cross-over distortion,
as the Q1 and Q2 need 0.7V to bias.
Since the be voltage is in the direction of the opposite
supply, perhaps you could add a diode in series with the 'cold'
sie (side connected to the supply lines) o fsec1 and sec3,
with a resistor to the opposite supply, to create a .7V bias.
(I have only drawn the negative side in the diagram).

Yes. I was going to put a resistor between the two
bases to get a small amount of Class A biasing.

But the OP's further explanation of the requirements
probably makes the circuit inappropriate.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
alan said:
Yeah, that sounds about right...

Anyway, I was hoping that there would be a way to do it without
physically isolating things.
It just seems that it shouldn't be that hard to take an existing
circuit for a current source with one end grounded, but then make that
end float as well. Of course, I could build two opposite current
sources, but I don't think I could match up the source and sink currents
exactly.

How about an ordinary floaing voltage-controlled voltage source,
with a series resistor? You could add a feedback resistor, and
a couple of optoisolators for compensated feedback...

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan Panteltje said:
Light bulbs, as current source..
When the wire in the buklb gets hot, its resistance increases (a lot),
so you get some current stabilization.
JP

How about a battery and a pot?

All he said, after all, is a "floating current source".

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
alan said:
Yeah, that sounds about right...

Anyway, I was hoping that there would be a way to do it without
physically isolating things.
It just seems that it shouldn't be that hard to take an existing
circuit for a current source with one end grounded, but then make that
end float as well. Of course, I could build two opposite current
sources, but I don't think I could match up the source and sink currents
exactly.

Actually, precise matching is not needed.
Another alternate method is to use a 1X constant source, and a
switchable 2X sink.
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
How about a battery and a pot?

All he said, after all, is a "floating current source".

Cheers!
Rich
That wil work, but the current will not be very stable when there
are load variations.
When you say 'current source' the idea is that the current is
stabilized somewhat.
But you are right, take a high enough voltage for the battery and a
high value resistor, and it will be close.
JP
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
How about an ordinary floaing voltage-controlled voltage source,
with a series resistor? You could add a feedback resistor, and
a couple of optoisolators for compensated feedback...

Cheers!
Rich
It has to be AC
100kV transformer with 100 MOhm gives stable 1mA
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson said:
Absolutely... pretty much what I have been thinking. I don't even
think the extra probe is needed to establish "zeros out the voltage in
the middle of the sample".

...Jim Thompson

I did this in a product I designed about 10 years ago, and it worked well -
a current limited voltage source - it was a switchable 0-10V/+-10V/0-20mA
output stage for user I/O in an ac drive. Interestingly enough, the
differential current measurement set upper bounds on the accuracy - a pair
of voltage dividers off each end of Rsense, connected to +ve and -ve opamp
inputs. this is of course a resistor mismatch detector, and with 1% 50ppm/C
resistors throughout the circuit, gave us an overall accuracy of 5%. We
later changed to the dual of this topology, ie a voltage limited current
source (our old friend, mr modified howland). Sensitivity analysis proved
the dual was less critical than the original - about 3% vs 5% - and actually
used a few less parts (had to do some silly things when outputting -ve
voltages, so had diodes on the current sense amp dividers, which had to be
low volt-drop (ie schottky) and low leakage (ie not schottky). We could have
just used 0.5% or 0.2% resistors, but $$$ is important. The dual cost about
$0.20 less than the original, mostly because the diodes used in the voltage
clamp were LL4148s and we didnt care about Vf or Ileak.

Terry
 
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