[[email protected]]

I'm looking to tie in my BRK AC fire alarm system into my Caddx NX-8e
Security System so I can have it monitored in case of a fire. I'd
prefer not to rewire my entire house with fire alarms if possible.

Does anyone of any systems which will allow me to tie the two systems
together (i.e. AC->DC systems)? I'm aware of the safety issues/code
violations around doing this, so I'd like to do it the right way.

So far, the only thing I've seen which can do this is the Cepco system
which monitors the alarm from a sensor which sends a signal over the AC
wires which gets picked up by a remote receiver which can be either
hardwired-in or plugged directly into an AC outlet (the box has either
NO or NC connections leading from it.)

I wasn't sure if there were any other systems out there that can also
do this that might be a better way of doing it. Thanks!!!

 

[nick markowitz]

NFPA prohibits tying 120 volt smokes to a fire panel because of problems of
false alarms caused when power drops to smokes it is highly likely to false
..
3-8.1.3 and3-8.1.4.4
Put in some wireless smokes which are supervised would be the better way.

 

[Crash Gordon]

Don't do it. Do it right or don't do it at all. I cringe everytime I see
someone do this.



| I'm looking to tie in my BRK AC fire alarm system into my Caddx NX-8e
| Security System so I can have it monitored in case of a fire. I'd
| prefer not to rewire my entire house with fire alarms if possible.
|
| Does anyone of any systems which will allow me to tie the two systems
| together (i.e. AC->DC systems)? I'm aware of the safety issues/code
| violations around doing this, so I'd like to do it the right way.
|
| So far, the only thing I've seen which can do this is the Cepco system
| which monitors the alarm from a sensor which sends a signal over the AC
| wires which gets picked up by a remote receiver which can be either
| hardwired-in or plugged directly into an AC outlet (the box has either
| NO or NC connections leading from it.)
|
| I wasn't sure if there were any other systems out there that can also
| do this that might be a better way of doing it. Thanks!!!
|

 

[[email protected]]

(Other than from an asthetics point of view) I suppose I could install
two sets fire alarms in the house.The only way I could do this though
would be to do it wirelessly (or rebuild my house since it would be
near impossible to route the wires without major destruction!

The only thing I'm a little confused by is why would Cepco sell such a
system if it was against code. They say on their web site that not only
is it UL Listed but Listed with the California Fire Marshal (CSFM
7300-1628-100.) It's specifically designed for 120V Fire Alarms to be
connected to an Alarm Panel for monitoring purposes (states it right in
the application notes in several places.)

I hope we're all talking about the same system here, it's not a direct
connect method (i.e. using a BRK relay module for instance which is
ABSOLUTELY against code and I'm aware of this.) The way they do their
system is much different than I've seen before. If you don't know what
I mean then you might want to check out their web site for details.

I understand this is not the most ideal method since the two systems
are independent and no supervision would be possible. But wouldn't it
be better to have some monitoring than none at all? (Not doing
something doesn't make any sense to me since if a fire broke out at my
house and I'm not home it's going to burn to the ground period - my
neighbors are just too far away to notice.)

Thanks!!

 

[Frank Olson]

(Other than from an asthetics point of view) I suppose I could install
two sets fire alarms in the house.The only way I could do this though
would be to do it wirelessly (or rebuild my house since it would be
near impossible to route the wires without major destruction!

The only thing I'm a little confused by is why would Cepco sell such a
system if it was against code. They say on their web site that not only
is it UL Listed but Listed with the California Fire Marshal (CSFM
7300-1628-100.) It's specifically designed for 120V Fire Alarms to be
connected to an Alarm Panel for monitoring purposes (states it right in
the application notes in several places.)

I hope we're all talking about the same system here, it's not a direct
connect method (i.e. using a BRK relay module for instance which is
ABSOLUTELY against code and I'm aware of this.) The way they do their
system is much different than I've seen before. If you don't know what
I mean then you might want to check out their web site for details.

I understand this is not the most ideal method since the two systems
are independent and no supervision would be possible. But wouldn't it
be better to have some monitoring than none at all? (Not doing
something doesn't make any sense to me since if a fire broke out at my
house and I'm not home it's going to burn to the ground period - my
neighbors are just too far away to notice.)

Thanks!!

If you're actually bent on doing this, NFPA does allow you to connect
your 120VAC smoke alarms through a listed relay to your burglar panel.
It does NOT allow connection to a UL listed Fire Alarm Control, however.
I would never recommend this type of interconnection for obvious
reasons, however the section of NFPA which references this topic is NFPA
72-2002 11.7.6.7.

You must use a relay that's listed for operation with the specific smoke
alarms.

 

[Frank Olson]

If you're actually bent on doing this, NFPA does allow you to connect
your 120VAC smoke alarms through a listed relay to your burglar panel.
It does NOT allow connection to a UL listed Fire Alarm Control, however.
I would never recommend this type of interconnection for obvious
reasons, however the section of NFPA which references this topic is NFPA
72-2002 11.7.6.7.

You must use a relay that's listed for operation with the specific smoke
alarms.

I should clarify the "It does NOT allow connection to a UL listed Fire
Alarm Control, however" comment. You *can* monitor *status* of almost
any device on a listed fire alarm panel (program a zone as a "monitor"
zone). Some other examples are: fire dampers, exhaust fans,
pressurization fans, generator "status" indicators, etc. You can't use
a 120VAC smoke alarm (even with a listed relay) to initiate an alarm in
place of a properly listed two wire supervised smoke detector.

 

[MissingLink]

(Other than from an asthetics point of view) I suppose I could install
two sets fire alarms in the house.The only way I could do this though
would be to do it wirelessly (or rebuild my house since it would be
near impossible to route the wires without major destruction!

The only thing I'm a little confused by is why would Cepco sell such a
system if it was against code. They say on their web site that not only
is it UL Listed but Listed with the California Fire Marshal (CSFM
7300-1628-100.) It's specifically designed for 120V Fire Alarms to be
connected to an Alarm Panel for monitoring purposes (states it right in
the application notes in several places.)

I hope we're all talking about the same system here, it's not a direct
connect method (i.e. using a BRK relay module for instance which is
ABSOLUTELY against code and I'm aware of this.) The way they do their
system is much different than I've seen before. If you don't know what
I mean then you might want to check out their web site for details.

gotta link to the website?

 

[Tommy]

I looked up a link for them. www.cepcoproducts.com They want to monitor
smoke alarms over a PLC or "X-10" type system. Tell me i'm wrong. As
unreliable as x-10 can be, there is no way i or probably anyone here would
recommend using this as an alarm signal.

After looking at their website, code or not, I just could not trust a power
line type system to operate reliably enough for a life safety application

 

[MissingLink]

hemay want to ask over in comp.home.automation, they are the x10 pros. but
yeah it sounds like a bad idea for life safety functions.

 

[Frank Olson]

I looked up a link for them. www.cepcoproducts.com They want to monitor
smoke alarms over a PLC or "X-10" type system. Tell me i'm wrong. As
unreliable as x-10 can be, there is no way i or probably anyone here would
recommend using this as an alarm signal.

After looking at their website, code or not, I just could not trust a power
line type system to operate reliably enough for a life safety application

First of all I don't think anyone here would *recommend* using (or even
propose installing) an AC smoke detector as a life safety device
(regardless of the fact that it may incorporate a back-up battery). The
*proper* way to provide fire detection in any situation is to use smoke
detectors/alarms that are powered & *supervised* by a listed burglar or
fire panel. Of course, Bass will jump in and state that as soon as you
connect any smoke detector or heat detector to a listed burg panel, it
magically transforms into a fire alarm system. He'll also argue (until
he's blue in the face) that you *can't* tie in an AC smoke alarm to a
burg panel (or communicator); that it's against code (he'll even quote
the definitions listed in NFPA) to support his argument while totally
ignoring NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7.

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks everyone for the information. This is very helpful. I definitely
NOT an expert on this so it's good to hear from people who are. I
always try to educate myself before attempting anything, so whether
this is a good or bad idea it's nice to understand at least what the
pros and cons are for this solution.

As for reliability, I don't think this will be an issue given how close
in proximity my first AC Fire Alarm is to my panel anyway (I know with
X10/PLC systems distance can be a factor in reliability.) They actually
state that the system is extremely reliable and they have a small
"whitepaper" on the technology in case anyone is interested in reading
it on their web site: http://www.cepcoproducts.com/Whitepaper 2.html

The one thing I'm curious about is what happens in the event of a power
failure (someone already brought this up) when the power is regained to
the alarms and they chirp for a second. Will this be enough to set it
off or is there intelligence in it to only trigger for an event which
is long enough?

I'll try to call them and see if I can find out the details. If it
turns out to be too sensitive, I may just apt for a few strategically
placed wireless fire alarms in the house. I still have 20 or so
wireless zones I'm not using anyway on my panel.

Thanks again!!!

 

[Tommy]

Frank,
read the post. I said that no one here would probably recommend that. I put
the probably in since I cannot speak for any one but myself. however this
has been gone over before, and the feelings of most are pretty obvious.

The rest of your post... right on the money.

 

[Robert L Bass]

I had been deliberately ignoring this thread. Olson is wrong.

 

[Crash Gordon]

Trust your family's lives on line carrier technology?
What if the AC was out when the fire started? Does line carrier junk work
over a dead AC line?


| (Other than from an asthetics point of view) I suppose I could install
| two sets fire alarms in the house.The only way I could do this though
| would be to do it wirelessly (or rebuild my house since it would be
| near impossible to route the wires without major destruction!
|
| The only thing I'm a little confused by is why would Cepco sell such a
| system if it was against code. They say on their web site that not only
| is it UL Listed but Listed with the California Fire Marshal (CSFM
| 7300-1628-100.) It's specifically designed for 120V Fire Alarms to be
| connected to an Alarm Panel for monitoring purposes (states it right in
| the application notes in several places.)
|
| I hope we're all talking about the same system here, it's not a direct
| connect method (i.e. using a BRK relay module for instance which is
| ABSOLUTELY against code and I'm aware of this.) The way they do their
| system is much different than I've seen before. If you don't know what
| I mean then you might want to check out their web site for details.
|
| I understand this is not the most ideal method since the two systems
| are independent and no supervision would be possible. But wouldn't it
| be better to have some monitoring than none at all? (Not doing
| something doesn't make any sense to me since if a fire broke out at my
| house and I'm not home it's going to burn to the ground period - my
| neighbors are just too far away to notice.)
|
| Thanks!!
|
|
| Crash Gordon wrote:
| > Don't do it. Do it right or don't do it at all. I cringe everytime I see
| > someone do this.
| >
| >
| >
| > | > | I'm looking to tie in my BRK AC fire alarm system into my Caddx NX-8e
| > | Security System so I can have it monitored in case of a fire. I'd
| > | prefer not to rewire my entire house with fire alarms if possible.
| > |
| > | Does anyone of any systems which will allow me to tie the two systems
| > | together (i.e. AC->DC systems)? I'm aware of the safety issues/code
| > | violations around doing this, so I'd like to do it the right way.
| > |
| > | So far, the only thing I've seen which can do this is the Cepco system
| > | which monitors the alarm from a sensor which sends a signal over the
AC
| > | wires which gets picked up by a remote receiver which can be either
| > | hardwired-in or plugged directly into an AC outlet (the box has either
| > | NO or NC connections leading from it.)
| > |
| > | I wasn't sure if there were any other systems out there that can also
| > | do this that might be a better way of doing it. Thanks!!!
| > |
|

 

[Crash Gordon]

ONe question would be; do line carrier devices transmit anything if the ac
sine wave is non-existant? I'm *guessing* - not.


| Thanks everyone for the information. This is very helpful. I definitely
| NOT an expert on this so it's good to hear from people who are. I
| always try to educate myself before attempting anything, so whether
| this is a good or bad idea it's nice to understand at least what the
| pros and cons are for this solution.
|
| As for reliability, I don't think this will be an issue given how close
| in proximity my first AC Fire Alarm is to my panel anyway (I know with
| X10/PLC systems distance can be a factor in reliability.) They actually
| state that the system is extremely reliable and they have a small
| "whitepaper" on the technology in case anyone is interested in reading
| it on their web site: http://www.cepcoproducts.com/Whitepaper 2.html
|
| The one thing I'm curious about is what happens in the event of a power
| failure (someone already brought this up) when the power is regained to
| the alarms and they chirp for a second. Will this be enough to set it
| off or is there intelligence in it to only trigger for an event which
| is long enough?
|
| I'll try to call them and see if I can find out the details. If it
| turns out to be too sensitive, I may just apt for a few strategically
| placed wireless fire alarms in the house. I still have 20 or so
| wireless zones I'm not using anyway on my panel.
|
| Thanks again!!!
|
| Tommy wrote:
| > I looked up a link for them. www.cepcoproducts.com They want to monitor
| > smoke alarms over a PLC or "X-10" type system. Tell me i'm wrong. As
| > unreliable as x-10 can be, there is no way i or probably anyone here
would
| > recommend using this as an alarm signal.
| >
| > After looking at their website, code or not, I just could not trust a
power
| > line type system to operate reliably enough for a life safety
application
|

 

[Robert L Bass]

ONe question would be; do line

carrier devices transmit anything
if the ac sine wave is non-existant?
I'm *guessing* - not.

You guessed right.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

I had been deliberately ignoring this thread. Olson is wrong.

No. You haven't been "deliberately ignoring this thread". If you did
that (using the browser you're using), it wouldn't have even shown up
and you couldn't have responded. What you're doing is "deliberately
avoiding *responding* to this thread. The reason for that's obvious to
anyone with a heartbeat.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm not sure I understand this comment. How would I be trusting my
family's lives on line carrier line technology?

Today (already installed in the house before I purchased it) I have an
existing AC Fire Alarm system with battery backup. In the event of a
power failure and a fire, the alarm will go off and notify everyone in
the house to evacuate.

So my question is - how would this functionality any different than a
system hooked to the panel if say the alarm's circuit board fails or
the phone line melts? The fire alarms should operate and go off in both
cases will in the event of detecting smoke but without any monitoring
notification. Shouldn't it be exactly the same functionally?

Right now the system I have for fire is standalone and obviously not
monitored, but how is it any different functionality-wise if I hooked
into the panel over carrier line technology than not having it hooked
in at all? It would still be the same system I have today. So I'm not
sure how I would be trusting my family's life on this?

My only thought was to possibly add in remote monitoring to my existing
system to add additional protection while I'm NOT home. And yes, I
understand if the power fails the system connectivity to the panel
would fail rendering the system completely useless (i.e. no remote
monitoring would be possible.) But once again, how is this any
different than what I have today? No difference and still no remote
monitoring.

Actually, I really thank everyone for taking the time to provide their
suggestions and comments on the subject. I gained a lot of valuable
information on this topic and I will probably just install a few
strategically placed wireless fire alarms throughout the house (as this
seems to be the more preferred approach.)

Honestly, I didn't mean to do any "trolling" on the subject, but it
definitely seems like very debated discussion topic from what I can
tell now! Oh yeah, one final thing.. for those of you who are wondering
- NO, I'm not trying to install a faulty monitoring system to off my
family in a house fire so I can collect on the insurance money!! <grin>

Anyhow, many thanks!

 

[Crash Gordon]

I believe for line carrier to work (send a signal) there actually have to be
AC sine wave present, which means it won't work if there's no AC.

I don't know about others but when I do residential fire, not only do I run
the smokes in firewire, but also; power, siren, keypad and fone...not that
the wire is fire proof but at least it may last a little longer.


| I'm not sure I understand this comment. How would I be trusting my
| family's lives on line carrier line technology?
|
| Today (already installed in the house before I purchased it) I have an
| existing AC Fire Alarm system with battery backup. In the event of a
| power failure and a fire, the alarm will go off and notify everyone in
| the house to evacuate.
|
| So my question is - how would this functionality any different than a
| system hooked to the panel if say the alarm's circuit board fails or
| the phone line melts? The fire alarms should operate and go off in both
| cases will in the event of detecting smoke but without any monitoring
| notification. Shouldn't it be exactly the same functionally?
|
| Right now the system I have for fire is standalone and obviously not
| monitored, but how is it any different functionality-wise if I hooked
| into the panel over carrier line technology than not having it hooked
| in at all? It would still be the same system I have today. So I'm not
| sure how I would be trusting my family's life on this?
|
| My only thought was to possibly add in remote monitoring to my existing
| system to add additional protection while I'm NOT home. And yes, I
| understand if the power fails the system connectivity to the panel
| would fail rendering the system completely useless (i.e. no remote
| monitoring would be possible.) But once again, how is this any
| different than what I have today? No difference and still no remote
| monitoring.
|
| Actually, I really thank everyone for taking the time to provide their
| suggestions and comments on the subject. I gained a lot of valuable
| information on this topic and I will probably just install a few
| strategically placed wireless fire alarms throughout the house (as this
| seems to be the more preferred approach.)
|
| Honestly, I didn't mean to do any "trolling" on the subject, but it
| definitely seems like very debated discussion topic from what I can
| tell now! Oh yeah, one final thing.. for those of you who are wondering
| - NO, I'm not trying to install a faulty monitoring system to off my
| family in a house fire so I can collect on the insurance money!! <grin>
|
| Anyhow, many thanks!
|
| Crash Gordon wrote:
| > Trust your family's lives on line carrier technology?
| > What if the AC was out when the fire started? Does line carrier junk
work
| > over a dead AC line?
|

 

[FIRETEK]

(sigh)