Microchip & OnSemi want to buy Atmel?

T

Tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
linnix wrote:
....
Flash is too expensive, period

Depends what for... I work for a company that makes industrial type not very cheap gear, our customers expect firmware upgrades and bug fixes without saying - it's cheaper for us to have flash in these products. I agree OTP is great for cheap throwaway items.

Tom
 
F

Frank Buss

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
Well, it all depends, I was writing today (or am writing) some intrusion detection
and counter measure software in C, (Linux based), it detects those nasty
denial of service and even worse Kaspersky related attacks on my name server, and
automatically starts counter measures.

I hope you don't use something like BIND? The last time I installed a
nameserver and SMTP-server on a Linux system, I installed it in separate
chroot-jails. Nowadays my hoster provides these services and I'm using only
lighttpd for my webserver, which is small, clean, more secure and faster
than Apache.

If you really like to do all by yourself, there are nice features in
iptables, if you are using Linux.
6502, now that is long ago....

Yes, looks like I'm getting old :) Today most people think it is cool to
write PHP or Visual Basic programs, if they are interested in programming
at all, but only a few people know the basics, or even like it.
 
U

Ulf Samuelsson

Jan 1, 1970
0
CBFalconer said:
That says, among other things, that the AVR coding is suitable for
expressing C source, and that a decent compiler is available.
Nobody says that about PIC assembly coding. In my experience
attempting to move something to C for the PIC involves loss of
clarity, and something like a factor of three in code size.
Admittedly my PIC experience is about 10 or 15 years old.

If you want something simple, that can be handled by a PIC and its
memory, PIC assembly can be very attractive. Say for a Microwave
controller.

The logical conclusion is that with the PIC you have two choices:

Poor productivity, by programming in assembler - or -
Poor code density which in the end means high cost.

Can't see how such a part can "serve you well".
The comments fromJan Penteltje:
"8 bit PIC is just fine." --
Shown incorrect
"Small PICs, like the 8 bit,
are ment to be programmed is asm." -- Should
therefore be avoided
"Use the right thing for the right job" -- See
above
"In asm, at least you know what actually happens." -- read the list file!

Then again, this is well known.

There are other of course other decision criteria.




--
--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
[email protected]
This message is intended to be my own personal view and it
may or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB
 
C

CBFalconer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Frank said:
Which part of Turbo Pascal doesn't meet the language specification?
I think TP is a superset of Pascal, because it has some more features,
like inline assembler and object oriented extensions, but otherwise it
should conform to http://www.moorecad.com/standardpascal/iso10206.pdf

Turbo totally fails to supply critical things such as the i/o
subsystem. This includes f^, which is a pointer to the last input
(or output) to file f, the put/get functions, which control those
transfers, etc. This completely fouls up normal Pascal i/o, which
is very capable of handling look ahead. Other limitations/faults
include the handling of numerical input, which insist on
termination with a <return> (I believe), rather than simply halting
at the first non-fitting char, which remains in f^.

You can partially tame Turbo with my txtfiles.zip unit, which is
available at:

<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net/download/txtfiles.zip>

but there was no excuse for this failure when they rebuilt Turbo
(for Turbo IV).
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
I hope you don't use something like BIND?

Yes I am using bind, and the very latest too.
There is an issue with source port randomness, and transaction id randomness,
you can test it here (press on 'Test My DNS'):
https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/services/dnsentropy

When behind some NAT translation tables, like from a router, the port randomness
will be destroyed however.

The last time I installed a
nameserver and SMTP-server on a Linux system, I installed it in separate
chroot-jails.

Well, OK, but the latest attacks are about something like poisoning the database.


Nowadays my hoster provides these services

I A AM SO GLAD I DO NOT HAVE AN ISP, THEY ALL SUCKED.

and I'm using only
lighttpd for my webserver, which is small, clean, more secure and faster
than Apache.

mmm, Apache does a good job so far here.

If you really like to do all by yourself, there are nice features in
iptables, if you are using Linux.

Yes of course I use IP tables, just passed the 1000 entries :)
Imagine 1000 bad guys.

Yes, looks like I'm getting old :) Today most people think it is cool to
write PHP or Visual Basic programs, if they are interested in programming
at all, but only a few people know the basics, or even like it.


Once in a moment of confusion I bought a book on Visual Basic, thinking
it would expand my programming knowledge..
'Visual Basic 6.0', a thick book... I learned nothing from it,
not even how to write anything in VB...
Waste of money and time, it seems nothing it can do that I cannot do better and faster
in C using existing libs in Linux.

BASIC was OK, though, started on a Commodore PET, later a Timex Sinclair ZX80...
But then z80 asm was much more fun.. and the rest follows.

As for php, I use it on the website, it is useful.

In the end maybe 'which language' is not that important, I mean
*if* you can formulate the problem correctly, then you can write the program,
you have in fact the solution.
But you can do it as inefficient as you like of course :)
 
F

Frank Buss

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
Yes I am using bind, and the very latest too.

I wouldn't trust a program with such a bad security history (
http://www.isc.org/index.pl?/sw/bind/bind-security.php ). There are good
nameservers, which are more secure. E.g. the author of djbdns gives $1000
for the first person, who finds a security hole:

http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/guarantee.html

I didn't test it, because I used a simpler program last time I installed a
nameserver (didn't remember the name), because I don't need all the
complexity of BIND-like programs. But looks like djbdns is a good program.
It is even not vulnerable to the DNS poisoning exploit:

http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/blurb.html
I A AM SO GLAD I DO NOT HAVE AN ISP, THEY ALL SUCKED.

I'm glad that I don't have to maintain the infrastructure and constantly
monitoring security issues, appplying patches etc. Nameserver and eMail
just works. It is not the cheapest, but my ISP has more than 2 million
paying customers, so there is a good chance that problems are fixed fast.
In the end maybe 'which language' is not that important, I mean
*if* you can formulate the problem correctly, then you can write the program,
you have in fact the solution.

This depends on where you use the language. I don't write bug-free
programs, so I would feel uncomfortable to write a web application in C,
because it could have buffer overflows or crashs the whole webserver
program. If I write it in Java, I just get a nice exception trace in a log
file, but the rest of the server program continues to work and low-level
bugs like buffer overflows are impossible in Java (as long as you don't use
native parts of the system, like JPEG decoding).
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
I wouldn't trust a program with such a bad security history (
http://www.isc.org/index.pl?/sw/bind/bind-security.php ). There are good
nameservers, which are more secure. E.g. the author of djbdns gives $1000
for the first person, who finds a security hole:

http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/guarantee.html

Yes I know, and have, that program.
I find it a bit complicated and as long as bind works OK see no need to change.

I didn't test it, because I used a simpler program last time I installed a
nameserver (didn't remember the name), because I don't need all the
complexity of BIND-like programs. But looks like djbdns is a good program.
It is even not vulnerable to the DNS poisoning exploit:

http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/blurb.html


I wrote a small name server myself, for the backup web server that runs from an SDcard
in a Linksys wireless access point:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/wap54g/index.html#wapserver
As that name server is not finished (and perhaps never will) I am not releasing it and its source,
also to protect myself against evil forces wanting to see where all the weak spots are.
Now that runs the simplest web server you can imagine.
Asking for a login keeps most of the bots out.


I'm glad that I don't have to maintain the infrastructure and constantly
monitoring security issues, appplying patches etc. Nameserver and eMail
just works. It is not the cheapest, but my ISP has more than 2 million
paying customers, so there is a good chance that problems are fixed fast.

Well, some have 1 euro / minute help desks, and then once you get a line have to explain to THEM what
they need to fix....
I tried more then 7 ISPs, now I have 'direct-adsl', faster, cheaper, better.

This depends on where you use the language. I don't write bug-free
programs, so I would feel uncomfortable to write a web application in C,
because it could have buffer overflows or crash the whole web server
program. If I write it in Java, I just get a nice exception trace in a log
file, but the rest of the server program continues to work and low-level
bugs like buffer overflows are impossible in Java (as long as you don't use
native parts of the system, like JPEG decoding).

I have a bit different philosophy about all this.

These days it seems like the following tactics are used:
A lock on every door in the house with 2 keys to open it, and an open front door.

I do prefer a good fence with a good lock, and doors and windows in the house that
you just can open without locks.

No, I do not always check for buffer overflow [exploits], for example this news reader
will likely crash if some overflow is deliberately created.
So what.
I do not know a lot about Java, in fact all I know is that it is slow, does not have pointers,
that makes it not interesting for me.
Now Java-people claim it is not slow, but some also claim the world is flat.

My view is that people who attack the internet, and its applications, an internet that
is used by much of humanity, and many things that are becoming more and more essential
to us are based on it, should get the death penalty.

Now that will help.
And that also goes for those self serving people who publish new attacks every so often,
like Kaspersky & friends, lock am up and execute them.
It is just their ego and business, the virus writers are THEY, and lots of little script kiddies
use their ideas and tools to create havoc.

Bit extreme POV I have, but alas, it is that way.
 
N

Nico Coesel

Jan 1, 1970
0
CBFalconer said:
I'll wager you used something like Turbo, which does not meet the
language specifications. I used it for nearly 15 years in embedded
work, with very wide applications, and minimum problems.

Turbo -several versions- and Delphi -several versions. Programming
Pascal seems like walking in mud. Too many constraints. Can't do this,
can't do that.
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you don't have an ISP, how to get packets to/from the
Internet?

We have a special thing here, it is called 'direct-adsl',
basically the telco gives you a direct line.
It is cheaper then via ISP too.
But no servers, no email server, no web server, no whatever else
ISPs do..., no news server, but a fixed IP address.
So I bought a domain, installed smtp, named, apache, proftpd, lots
of other cool stuff, and pointed the domain to my IP address.
And since then I have been online with this since 2004 without a problem.

I can, from the notebook, ssh to my system from anywhere in the world,
control the heating, house electronics, even grab satellite TV if
the connection is fast enough (it can be compressed).

Also use the notebook as portable TV around the house via WiFi..
PC as media centre worldwide, MS is still dreaming about it...
All runs Linux here of course.
 
W

Wilco Dijkstra

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am amazed at the things programmers carp at and distinguish. The
C language is generally admired, yet it is one of the weirdest
languages in existance. PIC assembly language is also weird (but
works), and is generally poked fun at. Pascal (real, not Turbo) is
almost the soundest language available to all, yet it is studiously
ignored.
Pascal's strict type enforcement means that most bugs are caught
before the program is even compiled.

That's a myth. Pascal's type checking is not stronger than C as long
as you don't use explicit type casts. Pascal is more restrictive so it's
harder for a novice to create a program that compiles.
The run time type checking prevents big trouble on the few that may
slip by.

Again a myth. Automatic runtime checks don't significantly improve software
reliability. Most bugs are due to incorrect specification or implementation,
not due to accessing null pointers etc.
This leads to its
downfall. If you think of programming as being like mountain
climbing, you will understand why. The guy who crawls up the side of
a mountain gets a lot more respect than some who takes a safe and
comfortable helicopter ride there.

A better comparison would be between a novice climber using safety ropes
and an experienced climber without. The safety equiment doesn't stop the
inexperienced climber from falling all the time or getting lost. The experienced
climber knows to choose a safe route without risking a fall and so doesn't need
the ropes that slow him down.

Experienced programmers don't need to be restricted by a language in order
to write safe and reliable software.

Wilco
 
V

Vladimir Vassilevsky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Wilco said:
Experienced programmers don't need to be restricted by a language in order
to write safe and reliable software.

Yes, of course. But the real problem is where to get many experienced
programmers for cheap.


Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com
 
W

Wilco Dijkstra

Jan 1, 1970
0
Indeed. But would you rather use several inexperienced programmers rather than
a few more experienced ones? In the long term the experienced ones are likely less
expensive.

Probably not for long, as salaries have increased. Companies are already starting to
look elsewhere.

Wilco
 
V

Vladimir Vassilevsky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Wilco said:
Indeed. But would you rather use several inexperienced programmers rather than
a few more experienced ones? In the long term the experienced ones are likely less
expensive.

This is a classic question of few knights vs many conscripts. It turns
out that big practical tasks are better handled by the crowds of
expendable and interchangeable conscripts. There are the tasks for
professionals, too; however the main stream (where the money goes) is
handled by the hordes. So the goal of a modern programming language is
making the programming a blue collar job; the less is the possibility to
screw the things up, the better.

Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com
 
N

Nico Coesel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anthony Fremont said:
I really don't get all the PIC hatred. I've played around with quite a few
different micros starting with the 1802. Every micro that I've used has its
own set of crappy handicaps; PICs by no means have the market cornered on
this. By far the best design I've ever worked with is the ARM.

The problem with PIC is that people who know PIC don't (want to) know
anything else. If you only have a hammer, then everything looks like a
nail. If someone suggests to use more than 1 PIC in a design instead
of a real microcontroller get rid of him/her. That's the first sign of
trouble!
 
L

linnix

Jan 1, 1970
0
As technology move forward, you will see that ROM is no good.

With 6 inch wafers and 10 mm2 which might be more standard today
you have ~1500 dies/wafer and 36000 per lot.

Assume 8 inch wafer and 5 mm2 die in the future.
Each wafer is 32428 mm2 so you would get ~6000dies per wafer.
One lot of 24 wafers will give you 24 * 6000 dies = 144000 dies.

So that would be your minimum order...

The 16K ROM uC we are considering is 25,000 minimum order. The cost
is low enough that even if we throw away half of them, it is still
cheaper than OTP and much cheaper than flash.
 
R

RumpelStiltSkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
linnix said:
Didn't see my earlier post. Perhaps memory erased.



Flash is too expensive, period. Furthermore, try running a flash uC
under direct sun-light. They sometimes lose their memories.

Please explain. Makes no sense. Flash has no "erase" window.
We need migration path for: low quantity Flash, mid quantity OTP and
large quantity ROM. They should be C source and register level
compatible, for minimum porting issues.


That's why our customers are phasing out Atmel for productions. I
love AVR. I spent lots of time prototyping with AVR. I am strongly
against using Flash AVR in our productions.

Please elaborate on the pitfalls of Flash. Everyone is abandoning OTP
and masked rom in favor of Flash.
 
R

RumpelStiltSkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anthony Fremont said:
I really don't get all the PIC hatred. I've played around with quite a
few different micros starting with the 1802. Every micro that I've used
has its own set of crappy handicaps; PICs by no means have the market
cornered on this. By far the best design I've ever worked with is the
ARM.

I hate PICs, but one thing you got to admit is that they have
much better support than any other micro. That is why they are successful.
 
L

larwe

Jan 1, 1970
0
Many say flash is the only path, but others offer Flash and 'ROM/OTP'.

At some point, it doesn't make any sense to optimize any more.

For example, I had a design containing a very expensive,
"ROM" (actually vendor-programmed OTP EPROM, I believe) micro, and I
had to cost it down. Let's say the old micro costs $3. I look at all
the preferred vendors and I get the following absolute best prices.
Either of these parts will fit the bill as far as the other
peripherals go:

- For an 8K ROM part with 512b RAM and no EEPROM, $0.84 + $7500 NRE.
Leadtime on first piece sample 8 weeks, leadtime on a code change once
production ramps up is 24 weeks. I can't qualify the RF performance of
my app on real silicon. If I need to change something (e.g. I find a
weird harmonic and need to change the base clock frequency, thereby
requiring code changes), I need to wait another 8 weeks to know if it
works.

- For a 16K FLASH part with 2K RAM and 1K EEPROM, $0.85 + no NRE.
Leadtime on first piece samples is 24 hours. Leadtime on 100Ku
production quantity is 6 weeks. Leadtime on code changes is 0 because
we can IAP new code. Plus I can develop and qualify with the
production part; I can shift those frequency spurs around however I
need to avoid the carrier and IF danger zones in my circuit.

Why would I buy into all this risk and problem quicksand for a penny a
unit, even at 250K units/year? And in this specific example, the ROM
part has gone up to $0.90 while the flash part has fallen to $0.83.
 
L

larwe

Jan 1, 1970
0
Small PICs, like the 8 bit, are ment to be programmed is asm.
Sure, many grab, for reasons unknown to me, but

If you're talking one of the truly miniscule devices like the 8-pin 1K
parts used for PlayStation modchips and so forth - yes, an asm
program, get in quickly, get out quickly.

But the braindead PIC architectural features are alive and well in
devices up to 64K or even more. For my money, code volumes in excess
of a few kilobytes are much easier to maintain, outsource and
technology-transfer if they're in an HLL.

Once you get up to dsPIC, then yes you have a reasonable architecture.
But dsPIC is not PIC.

ANY architecture with banked memory is simply not meant to be
programmed in any language. There is absolutely no reason for it in
this day and age.
 
F

Frank Buss

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
This is an interesting area.
Many say flash is the only path, but others offer Flash and 'ROM/OTP'.

I think one reason is that ROM is more reliable. Lifetime of Flash is much
smaller, if working at high temperature. And for high radiation
environments and where you can't replace chips, like in space, the lifetime
is important. A nice alternative solution is MRAM, if the price is not so
important:

http://www.nsti.org/press/PRshow.html?id=2964
 
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