[Guest]

800 ppm - (air-free) Level of CO allowed inside oven flues by an
American gas association (now ANSI) standard, # Z21.1. [this level is
unchanged since 1921 when oven flues were still vented outdoors like
woodstoves, instead of directly into the kitchen as they have since
1950s!

And for a reference point, 400 ppm - Level of CO (air-free) allowed
inside furnace flues by an American gas association (now ANSI)
standard.

So, it's permissible by ANSI standards for your properly adjusted
kitchen stove to vent TWICE the level of CO INTO your home that your
furnace can vent up the flue.

You think that's okay?

Tell that to the 50 million gas range users and the
gas company service men that check them anytime the
gas has been shut off and they won't turn the meter on
until they can get in the house and check all the appliances.

But I turned the supply valve off to my 1959 Magic
Chef, I simply don't want pilots on in an unvented stove,
in fact I don't need a stove as long as the microwave works.

Joe Fischer

 

[Guest]

Untill a squirrel dies in the vent from co poisoning?

Have you not been around to many furnaces in the last 10+ years?

A plugged flue = NO HEAT

 

[Guest]

So what's your point? There's no such thing as complete combustion in
the real world unless you live in Nick's world. Therefore some CO is
going into your home. My point is two fold.

First, CO is normal product of combustion. I'd be glad to have you
show me any data I can check myself showing fossil fuel combustion
using off the shelf equipment the average person's going to have in
their home that produces NO CO during the course of its normal
operation.

Second, UL listed CO detectors will NOT alarm, unless they're faulty,
at CO levels of 69ppm forever. The EPA and ASHRAE recommend a maximum
indoor CO level of 9ppm. This is a great country. You are certainly
allowed to have whatever level CO you care to expose your family to.



For my family, I choose to depend on a low level CO detector.

Told ya he was a smart man.

 

[Guest]

Where did you hear that? I seem to recall the regs require a CO detector to
make an alarm after certain maximum times at certain CO concentrations,
and there was nothing that would prohibit displaying the actual CO conc,
even if it was below alarm level.

Nick

Here ya go.... the facts.


The American Standard - UL2034

This standard was implemented in the early nineties to cover products being
supplied and used in the American (and North American) markets. It has also
been subject to a number of amendments over the years (1997,1998, 2001).

Products officially approved to this standard must be clearly marked with
the UL symbol (perhaps add picture of UL symbol to web page).

Main alarm requirements :

a.. at 30ppm CO, the alarm must not activate for at least 8 hours
b.. at 70ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 60 minutes but must
activate before 240 minutes
c.. at 150ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 10 minutes but must
activate before 50 minutes
d.. at 400ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 4 minutes but must
activate before 15 minutes

 

[Guest]

Where did you hear that? I seem to recall the regs require a CO detector to
make an alarm after certain maximum times at certain CO concentrations,
and there was nothing that would prohibit displaying the actual CO conc,
even if it was below alarm level.

Nick

Here's some more info...


HOW MUCH CARBON MONOXIDE IS TOO MUCH

Always check with The Authority Having Jurisdiction. Know who is in the
building being tested.





ASHRAE 62-89 (American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air
Conditioning Engineers)

009 PPM The maximum allowable concentration for continuous (24 hr)
exposure. ASHRAE states the ventilation air shall meet the out door air
standard referenced to EPA and 9 PPM.



EPA (Environmental Protection Agency)

009 PPM This level or lower as an ambient air quality goal averaged over
eight (8) hours. This outdoor air standard is exceeded in many urban areas
due to auto exhaust.



Common Action Level

009 PPM or more above what you measured outside is the most common action
level in the U.S. by local Authorities of Jurisdiction for further testing.
Some jurisdictions require fuel shut-off until problem diagnosed and
corrected.



BPI (Building Performance Institute)

10 to 35 PPM is a marginal level in reference to potential or foreseeable
problems in some situations. Occupants should be advised of a potential
health hazard to infants and small children, elderly people and persons
suffering from respiratory or heart problems. If building has attached auto
garage, document CO levels in garage. Accept this level as normal where
unvented appliances are in use. These levels are unacceptable when
originated from vented appliances.

36 to 99 PPM is excessive. Medical alert. Conditions must be mitigated.
Ventilation required. Always test garage space. Individually test
combustion appliances. All repairs are to be conducted by a qualified
technician with proper test equipment.

100 to 200 PPM is dangerous (and is a common building evacuation standard.)
Medical alert conditions exist. It is suggested that occupant health
inquiries be conducted. It is advisable that someone else transports them
to seek medical help; 15 minute maximum exposure upon discovery. Report
incident to Authority of Jurisdiction.



ACGIH (American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienist)

25 ppm - maximum 8 hour TWA (Time Weighted Average)



EPA

035 PPM This level or lower as an ambient air quality goal averaged over
one (1) hour.



Common Action Level

035 PPM is also a common action level for fire department or other emergency
responders to utilize self contained breathing apparatus when occupation of
that environment is to be sustained by that responder.

035 PPM or less averaged over an 8 hour day within that workday is a common
goal of specific States Occupational Health and Safety Administration or
similar state entity. This is also a common goal of many employers despite
higher regulated concentration standards and may require the measurement of
several simultaneous reference locations.



OSHA (Occupational Health and Safety Administration)

050 PPM Maximum allowable concentration for a workers continuous exposure
in any eight (8) hour period. This 8-hour average requires continuous
measurement and accurate reporting in the workplace.


Any increase in PPM from outside to inside warrants further source
investigation and is documented, reported and even fixed is common in
jurisdictions where a fuel supplier also is considered an Authority of
Jurisdiction. This standard is also common to some federally and state
funded weatherization programs as well as protocol to some private companies
engaged in carbon monoxide testing.

Every home or building where people live, work or play should have a carbon
monoxide alarm detector. Please install one that meets the needs of all
people. Read the instructions and install them to the manufacturers
specifications. Please note the health advisory listed on all alarm
packages.

 

[[email protected]]

... UL listed CO detectors will NOT alarm, unless they're faulty,
at CO levels of 69ppm forever.
and

Now it sounds like they can "display," vs alarm...

Nick

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

where we had open heating heaters power it by propane
and I never hear from anyone dieing from CO

That's because you can barely read or write.

there is the way to add oxygen to the rooms
heaters are use for absorbing the CO

Bullshit!
Tell us what appliances absorb CO to make a room safe!
From the look of your posts, I'd say your suffering from oxygen deprivation
right now!
Breathe deeper...

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Have you not been around to many furnaces in the last 10+ years?
A plugged flue = NO HEAT

Some people will never get it, KJ.
You're right about CO.
Co is a result of incomplete combustion. Period!
ANY GAS BURNING APPLIANCE can experience incomplete combustion for a
variety of reasons.
Having a non-vented natural gas or propane burning appliance inside a
dwelling is dangerous.
Those who believe otherwise are playing Russian Roulette, and some will be
nominated for the Darwinian Awards.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Have you not been around to many furnaces in the last 10+ years?

A plugged flue = NO HEAT

Not on a 15-30 year old furnace.

 

[Guest]

Well, golly, that's just dandy of the gas company to verify you don't
have gas dumping into your home after they shut the main off. We do
the same. What's that have to do with CO in homes?

That's what I was thinking... they are not leaking so they MUST be safe.
<rolleyes>

Steve, some people just are to set in their ways to understand that the
simple things can be a hazard to their health.

I base my statements on personally testing appliances and homes for CO
levels.

800 ppm - (air-free) Level of CO allowed inside oven flues by an
American gas association (now ANSI) standard, # Z21.1. [this level is
unchanged since 1921 when oven flues were still vented outdoors like
woodstoves, instead of directly into the kitchen as they have since
1950s!

And for a reference point, 400 ppm - Level of CO (air-free) allowed
inside furnace flues by an American gas association (now ANSI)
standard.

So, it's permissible by ANSI standards for your properly adjusted
kitchen stove to vent TWICE the level of CO INTO your home that your
furnace can vent up the flue.

How can you relate "permissible levels"
with "properly adjusted"?

You think that's okay?

I don't think it is ok for any CO to be
in closed living space, and all I mentioned
is that there are millions of stove top burners
and unvented ovens, if they are not safe,
it is something that is not widely known.

While gas company men may not
check for CO levels, they will not turn a
meter on without making sure there are
no burners on that are not controlled
by safety valves.

The gas company turned my meter
off last spring to fix a leak in the street, and
I wasn't home when they wanted to turn it
back on, and I told them to wait till fall,
and when I called, the man came out and
lit the space heater pilot in the living room,
and wouldn't take my word that I had the
supply valve to the gas range turned off,
he checked top see for himself before
turning the meter on, and wouldn't leave
until I showed him the vent pipe for the
space heater in my room that is turned
off, but available if the grid goes down
to replace my electric heat.

In about 1975, somehow the main
gas valve for the entire city of Somerset,
Pennsylvania was turned off, and it could
not be turned back on until every one of
the 5,000 or so meters were turned off,
and the meters then only turned back
on as men from utilities from several
states went house to house lighting pilots,
it took almost a week, luckily the temperature
was in the 30s and 40s F.

Joe Fischer

 

[Guest]

Not on a 15-30 year old furnace.

Did you miss the "in the last 10+ years" comment?
(Or should I say "induced draft furnaces = no heat")

BTW, many "older" furnaces have manual reset spill switches. (this comment
doesn't say "all")

 

[Guest]

Now it sounds like they can "display," vs alarm...

Read UL-2034 and you'll know exactly what it states.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Did you miss the "in the last 10+ years" comment?
(Or should I say "induced draft furnaces = no heat")

Now you have adequately qualified your statement. Induced draft
furnaces do indeed stop providing heat when the flue is restricted,
and will therefore not pump CO into the house unless the burner is
poorly adjusted AND the heat exchanger is damaged.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Read UL-2034 and you'll know exactly what it states.

Well, my nighthawk is UL approved and it DOES display lower
concentrations.

 

[Guest]

Now you have adequately qualified your statement. Induced draft
furnaces do indeed stop providing heat when the flue is restricted,
and will therefore not pump CO into the house unless the burner is
poorly adjusted AND the heat exchanger is damaged.

If you have installed many furnaces in the past 10 years that are not
"induced draft"... quit being so cheap!!

 

[Guest]

Well, my nighthawk is UL approved and it DOES display lower
concentrations.

Display, not alarm.

I can't "see" the "display" while I sleep. Is that safe?

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

I have one, and have never seen anything but zero.

Joe Fischer

Mine only reads higher than zero if I force it to by creating CO (run
car on driveway and open the door)

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

If you have installed many furnaces in the past 10 years that are not
"induced draft"... quit being so cheap!!

You don't have to install one to "be around" one as stated in the
question above.

 

[Guest]

You don't have to install one to "be around" one as stated in the
question above.

IF "you are familiar with"... how's that?

But that doesn't change the fact that you want to either "nit pick" or
really have very little knowledge about furnaces in the last 10+ years.