NYT article on PV shortage

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George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Point; Everyone talks about a shortage.

The only shortage is for private use.

Energy suppliers have no interest in giving you or anybody else the
means to avoid paying for energy.

The oil companys don't sell oil, they sell energy.

The electric company sells energy.

The suppliers of solar panels are an energy company.

If you live beyond where energy is available you can buy panels, at a
price.

Shortages, if they exist, are artificial. Charge what the market will
bear. This is business.

I suggest you get a grip.

There is no shortage of silicon.

If there is a shortage of refined silicon it is because it is
financially advantageous for a shortage.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
Point; Everyone talks about a shortage.

The only shortage is for private use.

Energy suppliers have no interest in giving you or anybody else the means
to avoid paying for energy.

The oil companys don't sell oil, they sell energy.

The electric company sells energy.

The suppliers of solar panels are an energy company.

You were doing okay until that boner. Solar panel companies are interested
in selling solar panels. Period. They will sell them to whomever shows up
with a truck and some cash. They are no more an 'energy company' than GM is
an oil company. They manufactor a product (solar panels) and reap their
revenue from the sale of that product.

daestrom
 
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George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
You were doing okay until that boner. Solar panel companies are interested
in selling solar panels. Period. They will sell them to whomever shows up
with a truck and some cash. They are no more an 'energy company' than GM is
an oil company. They manufactor a product (solar panels) and reap their
revenue from the sale of that product.

daestrom
Pull your head out of the sand. All we get for our piddling use is the
surplus.

It's just that the surplus is less at this time while the bulk of
production goes towards making money.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
All your argument is for nothing. There is no shortage as such except
for people who want a home system. And they only get the surplus that is
going at the time. The bulk of solar panel production goes to making money.
 
A

Anthony Matonak

Jan 1, 1970
0
....
No, everyone doesn't talk about a shortage.
You were doing okay until that boner. Solar panel companies are interested
in selling solar panels. Period.

Daestrom, do you think it's worth it? I've seen these threads go on
for months and George always seems to come up with something that might
incite someone to attempt to correct or debate him. Do you think it
helps your own credibility to point out the blatantly obvious?
I.e. that solar panel makers sell solar panels, raw beach sand is
not the same as highly purified PV grade silicon, and any shortage
is not part of an evil conspiracy of oil companies.

Anthony
 
L

Landline

Jan 1, 1970
0
George oh George I would sincerely suggest you get your crystal ball
serviced by an authorised dealer that uses genuine parts and knows what they
are doing.

Up until approximately eighteen months ago, there had been no silicon
shortage, or none that I had heard off.

George Ghio writes "There is no shortage as such except for people who want
a home system."
George how come my industrial customers are experiencing solar panel
shortages?
George considering my clients are among the largest corporate and government
departments in Australia, does it mean I am just not good looking enough to
get supplied solar panels, or is there some other valid reason?

George Ghio writes "The bulk of solar panel production goes to making money"
George does that mean they give some solar panels away or for no profit?
I should get in the queue for the no-profit solar panels and let the mugs by
the ones with profit on.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Landline said:
George oh George I would sincerely suggest you get your crystal ball
serviced by an authorised dealer that uses genuine parts and knows what they
are doing.

Up until approximately eighteen months ago, there had been no silicon
shortage, or none that I had heard off.

Hearing aid need a new battery?
George Ghio writes "There is no shortage as such except for people who want
a home system."
George how come my industrial customers are experiencing solar panel
shortages?

Not because of home power use.
George considering my clients are among the largest corporate and government
departments in Australia, does it mean I am just not good looking enough to
get supplied solar panels, or is there some other valid reason?

That would depend on who your supplier is.
George Ghio writes "The bulk of solar panel production goes to making money"
George does that mean they give some solar panels away or for no profit?
I should get in the queue for the no-profit solar panels and let the mugs by
the ones with profit on.

Not much money in the home power sector.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anthony said:
...
No, everyone doesn't talk about a shortage.



Daestrom, do you think it's worth it? I've seen these threads go on
for months and George always seems to come up with something that might
incite someone to attempt to correct or debate him. Do you think it
helps your own credibility to point out the blatantly obvious?
I.e. that solar panel makers sell solar panels, raw beach sand is
not the same as highly purified PV grade silicon, and any shortage
is not part of an evil conspiracy of oil companies.

Anthony

Don't be to hard on the lad. Many people believe in conspiracy theories.

He is just exhibiting normal American paranoia.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
Don't be to hard on the lad. Many people believe in conspiracy theories.

He is just exhibiting normal American paranoia.

Typical of George. *I* not the one believing that shortages are contrived
or part of some conspiracy. I also don't believe that solar panel
manufacturers are energy companies.

But to answer Anthony, no it's not really worth it. So long....

daestrom
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Typical of George. *I* not the one believing that shortages are contrived
or part of some conspiracy. I also don't believe that solar panel
manufacturers are energy companies.

But to answer Anthony, no it's not really worth it. So long....

daestrom

Ah. "I" see. You only mean to discredit me by implying that I am
claiming a conspiracy.

What a wank.

On 10/8/05 9:21AM I said:

And before someone starts shouting "Conspiracy" the real answer is just
that it is "Just business as usual".

Capitalism at work.

And sure enough...
 
L

Landline

Jan 1, 1970
0
George what makes you say there is not much money in the home power sector?

We find there is heaps of money in the home power sector to the point we
cannot cope with the work.
 
F

frug

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Arguing or attempting a discussion with George is like arguing with a pig.
Even if you win, you don't gain much."

...you would know. "Pig Wallow" is what the Shingle
hanging outside your trailer reads, yeh?
<rhetorical>

fuggit
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep. But if you are going to imply that the home power sector is the
reason for growth in the industry you will only be fooling yourself.

The home power sector is a drop in the bucket when it comes to PV use in
the world.

OTOH if you are having trouble coping with the work then I suggest that
you need to look at what you are doing and get more efficient at the job.
 
L

Landline

Jan 1, 1970
0
George how do you know we are not efficient.
I can categorically state that you would be hard pressed to find a more
efficient better managed business.

The home power PV sector is a significant percentage of the PV industry and
getting larger every day.

George what type of solar work do you do that puts you so out of touch with
the industry?
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Landline said:
George how do you know we are not efficient.
I can categorically state that you would be hard pressed to find a more
efficient better managed business.

You said:
We find there is heaps of money in the home power sector to the point
we cannot cope with the work.

If you are having trouble coping then it stands to reason that you need
to improve you efficiency. But then I already said that.

So can we take it as read that you are unable to improve your
efficiency;-} Now be honest. What business can't be improved?
The home power PV sector is a significant percentage of the PV industry and
getting larger every day.

In the world use of PV home power is a drop in the bucket. But then I
already said that as well.
George what type of solar work do you do that puts you so out of touch with
the industry?

Well let's see. If we assume that you are an accredited designer and
installer under BCSE then you will be able to explain the "Underpinning
Skills and Knowledge for Accreditation Endorsements"

Now to answer your question, I run around fixing the fuckups left by the
many cowboys in the industry.

I can say that to the best of my knowledge I have not been asked to
attend to a system installed by you.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well at a guess I would say that you don't know what the "Underpinning
Skills and Knowledge for Accreditation Endorsements" are.

Sad state for someone who is installing systems.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ah. Not exactly an answer.

Let's be clear. You implied that I am not in touch with the industry.

I asked you a simple industry related question. If you are an accredited
installer you should be aware of the "Underpinning Skills and Knowledge
for Accreditation Endorsements".

So, are you an accredited designer and installer and do you know about
the "Underpinning Skills and Knowledge for Accreditation Endorsements"?

I answered your question.

It really is quite rude not to answer mine.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
You said:

we cannot cope with the work.

If you are having trouble coping then it stands to reason that you need to
improve you efficiency. But then I already said that.

Or, his statement, 'we cannot cope with the work' could mean he simply has
more orders coming in than he can fill. That's the way I read it. He can't
'cope' because he has more people wanting his services than he can supply.
Not inefficient, just so darn good they're 'beating down his door'.

Well let's see. If we assume that you are an accredited designer and
installer under BCSE then you will be able to explain the "Underpinning
Skills and Knowledge for Accreditation Endorsements"

And if *your* assumption is wrong (maybe he isn't acredited under BCSE),
then your question is ridiculous.

Are you sure he's even in the same country as you? Given some of his
spelling/grammer errors, English may not even be his primary language. Why
do you *assume* he must be acredited by the Australian Business Council of
Sustainable Energy?

daestrom
 
D

Dick LeCompte

Jan 1, 1970
0
This thread may have run it's course but I will throw in my two cents worth.
I work for a company that manufactures furnaces that grow ingots of
polysilicon for the PV market. Our business was essentially dormant
until this time lasr year when it took off like a rocket. Our furnaces can
produce a 240Kg ingot every other day. Since Aug of 2004 we have booked over
100 systems and shipped over 50 since last November. About 75 + % of our
output is going to China and only about 10 % is staying in the USA.
Customers have come to us willing to buy systems if we can hook them up with
a source of supply for feedstock. There are 5 suppliers of feed stock in the
USA that I am aware of ...Solar Grade Silicon in Oregon is sold out thru
2007, Hemlock in Michigan is also sold out as is Mitsubishi and Silicon
Recycling in Calif.. MEMC also makes poly silicon but I think is also sold
all its capacity. This shortage is an anchor on future short term growth and
will be until new capacity is on line. SGS and Hemlock are expanding. What
cost $35 to $40 per Kg last year now is going for $80 per Kg. We had a
difficult time finding one kiloton and are looking for 30 Kilotons to
support the production of our systems. Maybe there is some conspiricy to
drive the price up but at some point this material needs to hit the market
so the profits can be reaped.......I do not know about you but doubling my
money in 12 months would be a signal for me to take the money and run.
FWIW
Dick
George Ghio said:
All your argument is for nothing. There is no shortage as such except
for people who want a home system. And they only get the surplus that is
going at the time. The bulk of solar panel production goes to making
money.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Or, his statement, 'we cannot cope with the work' could mean he simply has
more orders coming in than he can fill. That's the way I read it. He can't
'cope' because he has more people wanting his services than he can supply.
Not inefficient, just so darn good they're 'beating down his door'.

Then again it may just be that he spends so much time fixing his stuff
ups that he can't cope with new work.

Aren't "what if games" fun?

Now Landlines little back handed jibe at my knowledge of the industry
got a response that he can't answer.

Do I know about the industry?

Yes, and far too much to put up with being nice to people who just
disappear for a while when they stick their foot in their mouths in the
hopes that when they resurface again no one will remember that they
failed to answer a simple question.

Some of the notable;

Two days autonomy.

Bilge pumps for continuous use.

And if *your* assumption is wrong (maybe he isn't acredited under BCSE),
then your question is ridiculous.

Maybe he could just answer for himself.
Are you sure he's even in the same country as you? Given some of his
spelling/grammer errors, English may not even be his primary language. Why
do you *assume* he must be acredited by the Australian Business Council of
Sustainable Energy?

A short lesson in OZ renewable energy.

Many years ago a group of hopefuls started an association in solar
energy. As the years went by they managed to talk their association into
a semi government position. This has now become the Business Council of
Sustainable Energy. In effect the BCSE is the governing body for
renewable energy industry in Australia.

Some years ago when this body was still SEIAA it was decided that all
installers and designers should have to renew their accreditation every
two years, for a fee.

At around the same time SEIAA also spent several thousand dollars to
write the "Underpinning Skills and Knowledge for Accreditation
Endorsements". This document is in fact the competency standards for the
industry.

Now, to renew your accreditation (which allows you to do work that for a
rebate) you must amass a certain number of points from a list.

You get points for a documented system - (Well, you can send them
anything you want as no one checks on the truth of your report.

You can get points for attending the industry conference (one attendee
described the conference thus - "A bloody good piss up, can't remember a
thing that was said"

You can get points for doing industry approved courses - If you can find
one running in your area that doesn't require you to stop working for
several months.

You also get points for things like; subscribing to certain magazines or
attending tea and biscuits product launches.

The only thing that you can't get points for is an actual assessment of
your actual skills based on the industries actual "Underpinning Skills
and Knowledge for Accreditation Endorsements" which are not mentioned at
all in connection with re-accreditation.

In fact, based on my inquiries, there are not more than a handful of
people who even know that the industry has a set of competency standards.

And for the record, I refused to renew my accreditation based on what
can only be seen as a "Cash for Accreditation Scheme".
 
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