[OT] The stupidity of being too clever by half...

[Scott Stephens]

one demand in recompense?

One does not demand extra compensation for being taught a harsh truth;
one rewards it. For best effect, the "reward" must be of the same flavor
as the "lesson", frinst a term in a truly unpleasant prison. That way
the other guy also learns a valuable lesson.

There is some delightful Buddhist proverb about a teacher that burns a
servants dress with a coal, so she can reciprocate by offering him a
coal to light his cigarette. I think it was a kind of metaphor for
justice and reciprocity, IIRC. Perhaps someone will post a link to it,
because I'd like a copy.

being pain in hurt for value?

Sigh. You trust a snake to bite you, not kiss you. The problem is
learning to identify and avoid snakes.

I'm working on defining that better. Predators don't come with warning
labels, and I'm near-sighted anyways. Perhaps I'll post a rule set for
playing corrupt games in corrupt systems I'm working on...

If you simply kill those who offend you, they learn nothing. If you
teach them not to offend, you have added a valuable member to society.
If they prove incapable of learning, a little genetic pool skimming may
be indicated.

There are nuclear, molecular and lattice scale et. et. dynamics at work.
There is a time and place to identify a population as guilty for
harboring criminal beliefs, and inflict collective correction.

Theist and Atheist. Its all the same - Predators and Prey playing silly
name-games.

Deities are, on the whole, infinitely more bloodthirsty than any
mortal could dream of being.

Indeed. In one documentary about 9/11, a priest interviewed said that
when he saw the jet crash into the tower, he knew instantly that
religion was involved, because only religion could motivate man to such
extremes. But unless you believe in deities with independent volition
(angels, demons, ghosts, et.) then you're stuck accepting religion as a
form of philosophy or meme that affects the minds of men. Have
communists been any less successful in brainwashing than any other cult
or religion? When soldiers are put into combat, do the sacrifice
themselves for one another less readily than suicide bombers?

****
My rough outline of a rule-set for sick games (political, religious,
philosophical et.):

division & specialization of labor in a competitive context vs games and
schemes to make others work for you. Industry vs. piracy

(this is a statement of systemic dynamics; not a moral imperative but a
consequence of intelligence, least-action conservation, and tradition -
fundamental identities. The "shoulds" and "aughts" are aesthetic
judgements; our minds recognize patterns and finding it interesting,
tend to think its appropriate, not cognitively dissonant)

Justice - cooperation & competition in a defined, reciprocal context
To the end values are established and promoted (life, flourishing)

Injustice, fraud, deception, cheating, "gaming" system, profiting
individual or gang at expense of system/social order

Examples & instances of cheating encourage others to cheat

Don't be the last one to start looting - you get less, likely to get caught

Kleptocrasy - pervasiveness of cheating based on the motives of game
players;
cheater 1:10, shame on you for cheating;
cheater 1:3 shame on you for getting caught -

Honest people desiring an honest system will find, or contrive reasons
to clean up the corruption and stop cheating. Someone in good faith will
start, others will follow the lead and stop cheating also. Dishonest
people will find excuses to blame others and demand they stop first and
pay, so they can get in the last hit.

Cheaters sanction cheating each other - reciprocity

There are no thieves in a kleptocrasy, just better or worse cheaters

Corrupt systems can't tolerate non-cheaters; they shame the cheaters by
invalidating systemic cheating/deception

Kleptocracies seek to corrupt any players by making dishonesty a
requirement of getting in the game.

If they can't do that, they will cheat and beat on non-cheaters until
becoming embittered and discouraged, their patience with honesty is
depleted, then they can accuse them of cheating and justify cheating them.

Kleptocrasy rule-makers make rule-sets to maintain status quo, increase
power of authority

Just systems put individuals/groups in mutually accountable roles. "I'll
keep you honest, & audit you, you keep me honest and audit me".
Kleptocracies enable corruption: "don't cast stones at me, and I won't
cast stones at you". "Forgive and be forgiven; don't spoil a good thing".

Dynamics of games are non-linear; corruption is path of least action.
having power is path of least action to getting more power, up to limit
cycle where the kleptocrasy disintegrates (loser pulls a gun at the
poker game)

"Stupid", "Good" people willfully refuse to see they are being abused &
cheated, to avoid admission of shame, consequent necessity to either
retaliate (pitifully against overwhelming force results in more
self-harm than enemy-harm), avoidance of motivation to cheat back and
hurt self-esteem, avoidance to realized one's
family/friends/countrymen/world are dirty cheaters. - Ignorance is bliss
when one can believe that existence is not a zero-sum kleptocrasy.

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

**********************************

 

[Scott Stephens]

Why do people insist on following religions that teach, "When a man
kicks you, turn over and let him kick you some more, and be grateful
for the valuable lesson. If you rise up to defend yourself, you are
sinning against God, and will be punished mercilessly."

I don't think Jesus or Buddha had that in mind, and I won't waste a
sermon on you. But no doubt paid professors of their philosophy employed
by tyrants wanted the peasantry to buy into that.

Sorry, that's the god of the nazis, and I have no use for him in
my Universe. In fact, it's time for him to leave, permanently.

You are spouting ignorance again. Nietzsche was the saint of the Nazis.
Nietzsche inspired Nazis with fascism, the domination of the inferior to
the superior, and cultural double-standards based on class. Nietzsche
who proclaimed "God is Dead" and railed about the perversion of
Christian morality in advocating mercy for the pathetic and weak.

You, the the liberal leftists you've been heading, are deceivers who
worship Nietzsche and practice his philosophy in secret.

The only thing Christian about Nazi fascism is the subjection and
self-sacrifice preached of the individual to the collective, and that
self-sacrifice was the low-caste peasant philosophy, not the high-caste
philosophy, in the double-standard philosophic culture Nietzsche advocated.

Nietzsche was quite an individualist himself. He probably catalyzed WW2.
But if Europe wasn't a powder keg, he couldn't have inspired Hitler
and his fellow thugs. It sure as hell wasn't Jesus that inspired the Nazis.

You should study some history and philosophy, and stop reading the New
York Times so much. But go ahead and bash Christians, they won't fight
back, and when their moderating influence is gone, there won't be any
more compassion to stop malice and greed from making our system go critical.

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

**********************************

 

[John Larkin]

Patience, faith, hope, and love for the values that have been violated,
the manifestation of which is incandescent hatred.

Makes sense.

John

 

[John Larkin]

I don't think Jesus or Buddha had that in mind, and I won't waste a
sermon on you. But no doubt paid professors of their philosophy employed
by tyrants wanted the peasantry to buy into that.

The US doesn't have peasants. Most farmers are serious business people
nowadays; ignorant people don't last long as farmers.

John

 

[Kevin Aylward]

I think you're pretty close, plus I like to needle anybody who says,
"It's this way, because that's the way it is, and that's that."

*Everything* has to be explained in terms of something else. At some
point we have to stop at one of the turtles. Its just the way it is

I'm more interested in, howcome evolution works the way it does?
What's the motive force that induces subatomic particles to reverse
entropy and achieve a more highly-organized form?

Why *should* there be a motive?

I seem to encounter an uncomfortable silence when I ask things like
that.

The laws of physics is what gives order to random generation. Some
things are simply preferred to other things. Like, some reactions are
more likely to occur than others. You asking why is the shrodinger
equation the way it is, as this is the equation that tells molecules to
behave the way they do. No one knows why.

My guestimate in that the laws of physics are probably randomly
generated. We just happen to be living in one of those generations of
universes that allow us to observe our universe.

There is simply no reason for there to be a reason.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

I suspect Rich was "playing" on what could __appear__ to be the
possessive form of 'Darwinian.' In other words, "Darwinian
Evolution" could be read as meaning "Darwin's Evolution," as though
the very processes of nature were his own.

Ok. A bit too subtle for me

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Rich Grise]

...
You should study some history and philosophy, and stop reading the New
York Times so much. But go ahead and bash Christians, they won't fight
back, and when their moderating influence is gone, there won't be any
more compassion to stop malice and greed from making our system go critical.

Actually, I'm bashing the false idols that the pseudochristians are duped
into worshipping.

Would Jesus vote for a warmongering murderer?

Remember, Bush is a dangerous liar.

THaks,
Rich

 

[Scott Stephens]

The US doesn't have peasants. Most farmers are serious business people
nowadays; ignorant people don't last long as farmers.

You thought I literally meant peasants (and I really men serf, but for
some reason I like using the term peasant)?

I can site plenty of cases where Christians, and perhaps some Buddhists
(I'm not nearly as familiar with) promote one standard for the powerful
and another standard for the power-less.

Instantly Jerry Falwell and his doctrine of Christian forgiveness comes
to mind. Dr. Falwell teaches one should forgive even if admission
repentance is absent. However, it is moral and just for the state to use
the death penalty to punish crime. Gov. Bush (in Texas) refused many
pardons, even of one repentant Christian woman.

The standard and policy for the individual or small group of individuals
is inferior to the standard and policy applied to large groups and
representatives of large groups.

There is one standard for the aristocracy that wields political power,
another standard for those subject to their power. Somehow the label of
"government" confers a different standard of morality and conduct.

Besides the US is full of peasants. AFAIK, Most people do not own
capital assets. Most people use fiat paper currency, and are at the
mercy of those running the global monopoly game. And calling the mixed
economy a monopoly game is too charitable. The slaves on Uncle Sam's
plantation are chained with fiat currency.

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

**********************************

 

[Scott Stephens]

Actually, I'm bashing the false idols that the pseudochristians are duped
into worshipping.

I'm not sure I would agree to your definition of "pseudochristian"
because I don't think you know much about the Bible or contemporary
Christianity. Even if you can identify the foolishness of obeying a
degrading double-standard out of tradition, which is pervasive in
contemporary Christianity.

Would Jesus vote for a warmongering murderer?

Remember, Bush is a dangerous liar.

So is Kerry. I would think Jesus would be in Iraq, trying to get the
archaic natives to realize they are on top of 1/6th of the world's oil,
and someone is going to kick their ass and take it, or delegate the
violence to a 3rd party directly or indirectly, if they can't get their
acts together and use that immense wealth for their and their neighbors
good, rather than harm.

I think the only reason you know to bash Bush is that the leftist media
is, and the leftist media is because the socialist French, Germans,
Russians and Saps have gotten stiffed on all the money they loaned
Saddam to buy guns.

Why don't you find some good reasons to bash Bush so I can agree with you?

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

**********************************

 

[John Larkin]

Besides the US is full of peasants. AFAIK, Most people do not own
capital assets. Most people use fiat paper currency, and are at the
mercy of those running the global monopoly game. And calling the mixed
economy a monopoly game is too charitable. The slaves on Uncle Sam's
plantation are chained with fiat currency.

Paper money is handy, but people here probably used credit or debit
cards, and checks, more than cash; bushels of wheat or gold nuggets
are clumsy for most transactions. Whether a person spends or saves is
usually a choice. But a peasant or a serf is a captive to the land he
farms, and can't leave. We don't do that in the USA.

John

 

[Rich Grise]

I'm not sure I would agree to your definition of "pseudochristian"
because I don't think you know much about the Bible or contemporary
Christianity. Even if you can identify the foolishness of obeying a
degrading double-standard out of tradition, which is pervasive in
contemporary Christianity.


So is Kerry. I would think Jesus would be in Iraq,

You poor, deluded fool.

Iraq _IS_ Jesus, and he's being murdered by the antichrist again.

Didn't Revelations say something about the rise of Israel?

Remember, Bush is a mass murderer.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Scott Stephens]

Paper money is handy, but people here probably used credit or debit
cards, and checks, more than cash; bushels of wheat or gold nuggets
are clumsy for most transactions. Whether a person spends or saves is
usually a choice. But a peasant or a serf is a captive to the land he
farms, and can't leave. We don't do that in the USA.

Commodity markets equalize the price of commodities to the common
dollar. The dollar is inflated as our debt is monetized in the global
economy, so I should be crying for foreign serfs that are being enslaved
(relative to American labor regulation and standards) more than ourselves.

They are the ones (Chinese, et.) that are giving us cheap imports while
suffering from polluted environments, sweat-shop conditions, et.

Cheap, loose credit also means the good my money pursues cost more, my
savings reap less interest, while my irresponsible comrade citizens sink
into debt and default on the credit. The banks write bad debt off their
taxes. You don't find the government telling them to eat bad debts, oh
no. But you won't escape your bad debts to the IRS or GSL, oh no. Our
pimping Uncle Sam will be sure to get his pound of flesh.

But I could find plenty of cases where the government tells you what you
can and can't do with and on your private property because it is a "wet
land", the habitat of a sacred snail, river-front, et.

And if I must pay tax on any property, is it really mine, or am I just
leasing it from the taxing agent who allows me to keep possession of it?

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

**********************************

 

[Scott Stephens]

You poor, deluded fool.
???

Iraq _IS_ Jesus, and he's being murdered by the antichrist again.

Were you whining and crying for poor Jesus when Saddam Hussein was
pimping him to France, Germany, Japan and Russia? No.

Didn't Revelations say something about the rise of Israel?

It says plenty about it. Read it and find out. Start with the Gospels
first though.

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

**********************************

 

[Rich Grise]

Were you whining and crying for poor Jesus when Saddam Hussein was
pimping him to France, Germany, Japan and Russia? No.

No, but he wasn't exactly running for president of the US, now was he?

It says plenty about it. Read it and find out. Start with the Gospels
first though.

Yeah, the part where Jesus tells you "Murder your enemies" must be
a popular passage in the neocon revisionist bible.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Scott Stephens]

Yeah, the part where Jesus tells you "Murder your enemies" must be a
popular passage in the neocon revisionist bible.

You might be surprised what you find if you read with an open mind:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...age=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

Matthew 11 12-19

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven
has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.

(force, even violence. Jesus used a whip to drive out the priests
corrupt money-changers)

13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if
you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He
who has ears, let him hear. 16"To what can I compare this generation?
They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to
others: 17" 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we
sang a dirge and you did not mourn.' 18For John came neither eating
nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came
eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard,
a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved
right by her actions."

Jesus explains that the old testament prophesy that Elijah would come
again is fulfilled, as if John the Baptist was his incarnation. Then he
goes on to say that the politicians, priests, journalists and hypocrites
are looking for excuses not to scoff and maintain the corrupt
status-quo, rather than looking for excuses to believe and behave honestly.

Jesus might say a tree is known by its fruit, and those judging should
be judged with the measure they judge with, and accept the same measure
of justice they mete it out with. Now was Bush looking for an excuses to
plunder Iraq, or to end the Stalinist terror-state and the shameful
European enslavement of Iraqi peasants by the megalomaniac dictator?

Would you complain as vehemently if Clinton used force in his policy of
regime change, rather than merely advocating it? Did you bitch and moan
about Clinton's Jihad in Serbia?

Are you being a good little hippie and stopped using your petro-dollars,
burning gasoline, and smoking imported weed that fuels our fascist
military-industrial complex?

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

**********************************

 

[Winfield Hill]

Scott Stephens wrote...

Jesus might say a tree is known by its fruit, and those judging
should be judged with the measure they judge with ...

Are you being a good little hippie and stopped using your petro-
dollars, burning gasoline, and smoking imported weed that fuels
our fascist military-industrial complex?

And yours is an open mind?

 

[Scott Stephens]

Scott Stephens wrote...



And yours is an open mind?

Uh, yea, I like to think I objectively consider alternative
perspectives. I often change my mind and find omissions. I'm surprised
I'm not taken to task more often for my mistakes. Probably shows I'm not
taken too seriously, especially when I play the Devil's Advocate. And
that provokes me to be more obnoxious and hysterical (trash talk) than I
should. Anyway how is my mind not open?

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

**********************************

 

[Rich Grise]

Jesus might say a tree is known by its fruit, and those judging should
be judged with the measure they judge with, and accept the same measure
of justice they mete it out with. Now was Bush looking for an excuses to
plunder Iraq, or to end the Stalinist terror-state and the shameful
European enslavement of Iraqi peasants by the megalomaniac dictator?

Looking for excuses to plunder Iraq. Or, more accurately, looking for
excuses to go on crusades _anywhere._

Would you complain as vehemently if Clinton used force in his policy of
regime change, rather than merely advocating it?

I don't care who, or what his idology is. Using force to override another
person's will is evil. It's that simple.

Did you bitch and moan
about Clinton's Jihad in Serbia?

I wasn't paying any attention.

Are you being a good little hippie and stopped using your petro-dollars,
burning gasoline, and smoking imported weed that fuels our fascist
military-industrial complex?

When did I ever claim to be a "good little hippie?"

Thanks,
Rich

 

[xray]

Anyway how is my mind not open?

Dude. You are scaring me. May the real spirit encompass you.
Stop buying into false prophets and look for the real meaning.
Everything in the bible should not be taken literally.

I think during their lifetimes all the religious leaders had pretty much
the same message. Now we are dealing with hundreds or thousands of years
of interpretation.

 

[xray]

Anyway how is my mind not open?

I just read some of your other posts in a different context.

Maybe I misjudged you after reading only a few paragragraphs.
If so, my apologies.