pls explain this circuit in detail

T

Tim Wescott

Jan 1, 1970
0
i need some clearification how it works.

thanks
That's a lot of explanation that you want in one newsgroup post. If I'd
designed a circuit like that as part of a paying job I'd expect to
deliver a circuit description with 10 to 30 pages of text.

The core of the circuit consists of a switching amplifier to 12VAC, with
a step-up transformer operating at line frequency (probably 50Hz). If
you can't find a circuit description for it on the web I'd suggest you
start doing web searches on switching amplifiers, and start working out
the functionality yourself.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
A

Ancient_Hacker

Jan 1, 1970
0
pls help me , i wasn't able to understand this circuit pls explain by
the way its a modified sine inverter circuit .

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1355/3000w12zq8.gif

Thanks in advance
Tamer El-Refaie

Well, I'ts not a particularly GOOD design. Lots of strange parts
choices.

Many very good inverters have been made with about 1/20 the number of
parts!

There's an op-amp and ancillary parts acting as a 12V to plus and minus
12 volt supply for the other parts.

There's an op -amp acting as an oscillator. Actually as a ramp
generator. The capacitor charges through two resistors and discharges
quickly thru a diode.

The CA3130 acts as a comparator (a poor one), comparing how far we are
up the ramp with the output voltage. If the output voltage sags, the
comparator will stay on longer, making a longer pulse.

Then the comparator output goes thrugh some logic to ensure only one
FET will be turned on at a time. The logic gets amplified by some
medium-power FET push-pull circuitts and drives the power FETS. Those
feed a step up transformer. The output current and voltage are both
monitored (poorly) and fed back to overvoltage and overcurrent
amplifiers, which shut off the oscillator.

That's basically it. Lots of problems though.

(1) The whole design looks like a "paper design" for somebody's senior
project.
Lots of use of generic parts where simpler, cheaper, and more
functional IC's are available. For example the whole bottom half of
the page can be replaced by one 45 cent TL494 IC. And do more, and
better. The charge-pump power supply is overly elaborate and can be
replaced by one IC.

(2) There's no guarantee this is buildable. At these power levels,
you need more than a schematic-- for example the transformer design is
quite critical. There need to be some more safety parts added to trim
transients and absorb EMI. I don't see any temperature compensation or
overtemp sensors. Mounting the FETS to a proper (probably fan-cooled)
heatsink is critical too.

I have no idea where one gets a 250 amp 12v to 220 volt transformer,
or FETS capable of that much current.
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
i need some clearification how it works.

thanks

I really don't *want* to understand how this circuit works (if it even
does). It looks like an example of many *wrong* ways to do things. Maybe
that was its intent, as a learning tool. It would be helpful to know why
you need to understand this circuit. It reminds me of the circuits on
equipment I sometimes try to troubleshoot and repair. I have often thought
it would be easier to redesign the circuit and patch it in on a perfboard
rather than trying to figure out and repair a fundamentally flawed design.

In this case the preferred way to generate the output voltage would be a
high frequency DC-DC converter (12 V to about 350 V), and then a PWM bridge
circuit (which could produce a good sine wave with some filtering), or a
simple on/off switch with deadtime for modified sine wave.

Paul
 
C

CWatters

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ancient_Hacker said:
I have no idea where one gets a 250 amp 12v to 220 volt transformer,
or FETS capable of that much current.

Looks like he's got 8 FETs in parallel which helps a bit.

Not sure I'd want to hook it up to my car battery for long though.
 
E

elrefaie

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chris said:
Hi, Tamer. Are you trying to fix this, or is this a school assignment?

Cheers
Chris


hi to all of u, thanks guys for the effort , this circuit i want to
build it , iam an electronics hobbyist and i don't build any circuit
unless i know the process flow of the circuit and understand it
verygood, so i thought that some pros here might help explaining in
detail how the circuit process goes on , so if i want to try to change
anything in it .


thanks in advance
Tamer El-Refaie
 
elrefaie said:
hi to all of u, thanks guys for the effort , this circuit i want to
build it , iam an electronics hobbyist and i don't build any circuit
unless i know the process flow of the circuit and understand it
verygood, so i thought that some pros here might help explaining in
detail how the circuit process goes on , so if i want to try to change
anything in it .


thanks in advance
Tamer El-Refaie

I wouldn't build that one if I were you, as has allready been pointed
out it doesn't look like it will work.
 
A

Ancient_Hacker

Jan 1, 1970
0
elrefaie wrote:

hi to all of u, thanks guys for the effort , this circuit i want to
build it , iam an electronics hobbyist and i don't build any circuit
unless i know the process flow of the circuit and understand it
verygood, so i thought that some pros here might help explaining in
detail how the circuit process goes on , so if i want to try to change
anything in it .


thanks in advance
Tamer El-Refaie

Problem is, these high-power circuits can be touchy. And one little
wiring mistake or short circuit and all those MOSFETS go Poof!.

I'd start with a much simpler inverter, such as your basic Royer
inverter.

One transformer, two transistors, two resistors, two capacitors, and
voila, a usable inverter. For a basic schematic, see the bottom
schematic in:

http://www.butlerwinding.com/elelectronic-transformer/switch_mode/inverter.html

The circuit you asked about looks like trouble with a capital T, that
ryhmes with pee, and that's what you'll be when it goes up in smoke.
 
R

rue_mohr

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ancient_Hacker said:
elrefaie wrote:





Problem is, these high-power circuits can be touchy. And one little
wiring mistake or short circuit and all those MOSFETS go Poof!.

I'd start with a much simpler inverter, such as your basic Royer
inverter.

One transformer, two transistors, two resistors, two capacitors, and
voila, a usable inverter. For a basic schematic, see the bottom
schematic in:

http://www.butlerwinding.com/elelectronic-transformer/switch_mode/inverter.html

The circuit you asked about looks like trouble with a capital T, that
ryhmes with pee, and that's what you'll be when it goes up in smoke.

motorola actually makes a really good set of documents on inverter
design, however their impossable to find, especially because they
restructure their documentation authorities every so often, I only have
a printed copy.

but, may I suggest throwing some newer technology at it?

I'v been mulling over a 4kW UPS design for running my house (the hot
water, stove dryer etc is on gas, so no huge power demand)

what I'm thinking so far is this

48v bank -> dc-dc converter -> modulator -> filter ->

here is why..

48V battery bank:
this voltage is still somewhat sane, and yet high enough to keep
currents down to something sane at 4kW

approximitly:

4000/48 = 83A

if it were 12V:

4000/12 = 333A

which is getting quite scarry. also if the drive to keep it as efficient
as plausable, you want to keep currents down, so your I^2R losses are lower.

,001 ohms of wire * 83 amps ^2 = 6.9W (now imagine at 333A :) )


DC-DC converter:

this is to boost the 48V to 170V (my output goal is 120V, not 240)

As a switching converter, these can be quite efficient and are still
somwwhat easy to build, I'd be going for a boost converter,
non-isolated. Because there is no way its practical to do this in 1
converter, it would be done with a set of converters (say 10) which
makes the core of each one obtainable, and keeps for current for each
converter reasoanable. The other advantages of splitting it up are that
I can offset their timings, in effect a 10 phase converter, this eases
life on capacitors etc etc. splitting it up also allows for some
redundancy, if a converter decides to bite the buscut, it can be
isolated and life can go on (which may be where the system goes into a
chain reaction failure, but thats what microcontrollers are good for
detecting) it also means I only have to design 1 converter and make it
10 times. This would be FET based, possibly IRF1404 or soemthing

modulator:

the 170V is perfect for bring modulated into a sine wave to form
120Vac, this would be done via pwm, making the process nicly efficient,
probably PWM at a freq of 25 to 50Khz. This would probably be fet based
also, although at these voltages, bipolars usaully prevail efficiency
wise (high voltage fets tend to have a high Ron, a bipolar transistor
has a fixed saturation voltage, there is a point that the I^2R losses
exceed the IV losses)


filter:

this would be a low pass so that the pwm freq dosn't get through, just
a nice true sine 60Hz.


Another nice thing is that this circuit is easily made on a small scale
for testing with a 40W lamp :)


dan
 
A

Ancient_Hacker

Jan 1, 1970
0
A much simpler way to go from batteries to AC power is with a few FET
switches, no transformer.

Just have 16 12V batteries or so, then a bunch of FETs to connect them
in parallel for a bit , that gives you a 12 volt step on the sine wave,
then another set of switches to connect them two in series for a bit,
that gives you 24 volts, etc, etc, etc, until for the peak of the sine
wave you have all of them in series. Same thing for the rest of the
sine wave.

Maybe add a small LC filter on the output to filter out most of the
harmonics.
 
N

Nuvox Newsgroups

Jan 1, 1970
0
heatsink is critical too.

I have no idea where one gets a 250 amp 12v to 220 volt transformer,
or FETS capable of that much current.

Actually I've had good luck making high-current transformers by using old
microwave oven transformers. I just cut out the high voltage windings with a
hack saw, insert some small gauge wire and end up with a custom low-voltage,
high-current transformer.

I've been able to get over 400 amps with a few turns or over 100 amps at 12
volts with a 1500 VA transformer. Using such a modified 3000 VA microwave
transformer the inverter in this post could possibly be made.

Dorian
 
D

Dorian McIntire

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ancient_Hacker said:
A much simpler way to go from batteries to AC power is with a few FET
switches, no transformer.

Just have 16 12V batteries or so, then a bunch of FETs to connect them
in parallel for a bit , that gives you a 12 volt step on the sine wave,
then another set of switches to connect them two in series for a bit,
that gives you 24 volts, etc, etc, etc, until for the peak of the sine
wave you have all of them in series. Same thing for the rest of the
sine wave.

Maybe add a small LC filter on the output to filter out most of the
harmonics.

The only problem with this method is that your batteries will be drained at
different rates. To charge them will require an equalizing charge
(overcharge) which can adversely impact battery life.

In theory its a good idea though.

Dorian
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
The only problem with this method is that your batteries will be drained at
different rates. To charge them will require an equalizing charge
(overcharge) which can adversely impact battery life.

In theory its a good idea though.

Actually, I've thought of this scheme, but am way too lazy to do the
math and figure out the actual design. But, once you get the bipolar
switching cluster-**** going, smart-charging the batteries should be
a walk in the park. :)
 
R

rue_mohr

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nuvox said:
Actually I've had good luck making high-current transformers by using old
microwave oven transformers. I just cut out the high voltage windings with a
hack saw, insert some small gauge wire and end up with a custom low-voltage,
high-current transformer.

I've been able to get over 400 amps with a few turns or over 100 amps at 12
volts with a 1500 VA transformer. Using such a modified 3000 VA microwave
transformer the inverter in this post could possibly be made.

Dorian

question, did you knock out the shunt blocks on the microwave
transformers or leave them in???

dan
 
A

Aristotle Eisenglas

Jan 1, 1970
0
elrefaie said:
hi to all of u, thanks guys for the effort , this circuit i want to
build it , iam an electronics hobbyist and i don't build any circuit
unless i know the process flow of the circuit and understand it
verygood, so i thought that some pros here might help explaining in
detail how the circuit process goes on , so if i want to try to change
anything in it .
thanks in advance
Tamer El-Refaie

For lots of info on making good quality PCBs, see No, Phil isn't
a troll - who are people who posts stuff that they expect to
generate controversy. Phil is just some kind of permeable
plastic, with some wet gel inside that just gave off water vapor
until it dried out, in a couple of parts". Michael Open circuit
voltages are rarely a guide to anything.

No sign of anyone using it; market share from zero. But I am
positively enthralled by his and , his and political analyses,
his of the creative process and the nature of the question.
 
A

Aristotle Eisenglas

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ancient_Hacker said:
A much simpler way to go from batteries to AC power is with a few FET
switches, no transformer.
Just have 16 12V batteries or so, then a bunch of FETs to connect them
in parallel for a bit , that gives you a 12 volt step on the sine wave,
then another set of switches to connect them two in series for a bit,
that gives you 24 volts, etc, etc, etc, until for the peak of the sine
wave you have all of them in series. Same thing for the rest of the
sine wave.
Maybe add a small LC filter on the output to filter out most of the

To test your charger, this might work: connect 2 9 volt
batteries in series with the whole series! By referring you to
"the 7400 series", they're telling you that if you're not
prepared to use it. Does retardation run in your family?
Yup.But I'm retired.

My .357 is a Ruger Redhawk. That's putting it mildly. <G> Have
you looked at the pic of my mess and suggested that I at least
have some canned blurb on how Coilcraft is just the of a desire
to see hens pecking around the garden or feel independent or get
fresh eggs and an incubator or a proper broody Not to worry
Jill, I use a separate winding inside the motor for each
direction, and one of the fan. You should be able to use a
battery to back up his position.
 
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