Power Amp Repair

A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Haaky said:
Wouldn't i be running a bigger risk putting in an 8A fuse instead of a
7 or a 6.3?

I'de rather the fuse blow instead of a more expensive part.

If it's knocking out a 6.3 amp fuse, and the correct rating that it's
expecting to have in there is a 7 anyway, then trust me, it will have no
problem taking out an 8. I wouldn't necessarily say the same about a 10A,
but the extra couple of microseconds to blow an 8 is not going to damage
anything else. Have we actually established if you have the proper " T "
rated type in there yet, anyway ? If you haven't, then all of this
conjecture about what *might* be wrong is a useless waste of time, as there
may be nothing at all wrong other than an invalid fuse type for that
application ...

Arfa
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
If it's knocking out a 6.3 amp fuse, and the correct rating that it's
expecting to have in there is a 7 anyway, then trust me, it will have no
problem taking out an 8. I wouldn't necessarily say the same about a 10A,
but the extra couple of microseconds to blow an 8 is not going to damage
anything else. Have we actually established if you have the proper " T "
rated type in there yet, anyway ? If you haven't, then all of this
conjecture about what *might* be wrong is a useless waste of time, as there
may be nothing at all wrong other than an invalid fuse type for that
application ...

Arfa

I have no idea what type of fuse i'm using. There is no making on it
saying it's a "T"
I checked the web site of the company that makes the fuses and i don't
see any "T" listed for that fuse.
It's 250V 6.3A GFE Miniature fuse made by Conquer.

I'm gonna take a strol over to the repair shop and see if they have
any 250V 7A or 8A "T" fuses.

I've looked at Radio Shack or The Source up here in Canada the only 7A
fuses they had were 1-1/4 X 1/4 it didn't look like they would fit
into the fuse holder.

I was thinking maybe, could i replace the fuse holder with a breaker?
I noticed the the manual they talk about a breaker switch and not a
fuse or fuse block.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Haaky said:
I have no idea what type of fuse i'm using. There is no making on it
saying it's a "T"
I checked the web site of the company that makes the fuses and i don't
see any "T" listed for that fuse.
It's 250V 6.3A GFE Miniature fuse made by Conquer.

Google seems to say a GFE type is fast blow.

You need a GDC type ( slow blow ).

I'm gonna take a strol over to the repair shop and see if they have
any 250V 7A or 8A "T" fuses.

I've looked at Radio Shack or The Source up here in Canada the only 7A
fuses they had were 1-1/4 X 1/4 it didn't look like they would fit
into the fuse holder.

I was thinking maybe, could i replace the fuse holder with a breaker?
I noticed the the manual they talk about a breaker switch and not a
fuse or fuse block.

You'll need a 20 mm fuse. like this

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102764&cp

Graham
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Google seems to say a GFE type is fast blow.

You need a GDC type ( slow blow ).




You'll need a 20 mm fuse. like this

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102764&cp

Graham

Ok i see i'm using a GFE type fuse when i should be using a GDC type
fuse i was gonna ask how to tell the difference.
I almost missed that line above my quote.

So i guess a GFE fuse is just an ordinary run of the mill every day
fuse And a GDC would be a slow blow.

Now are Time Delayed and Slow Blow fuses the same thing or are they
different.

Man you know how much this would cost me if i was to take a course and
my local collage to find this stuff out:):):):):)

I think we narrowed it down to me having to use the proper fuse. Which
obviously i am not using in the amp

I'm surprised this didn't happen along time ago. Maybe because of the
new part that was installed.
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Google seems to say a GFE type is fast blow.

You need a GDC type ( slow blow ).




You'll need a 20 mm fuse. like this

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102764&cp

Graham

On further inspection of this amp i noticed the Output Transistors are
as follows

2- c2837's as a pair
2- a1186's as a pair
1-a1492 \__ shouldn't these be the same
1-a1186 /
1-c2837 \__ shouldn't these be the same
1-c3856 /

I was just wondering it's probably the design of the amp.
Kind of through me when i took a closer look
I would have thought that each of the last 2 pairs would have been
matching like the first 2 pairs.

Shouldn't the 1 side of the amp be a mirror of the other side. Or is
this because you can switch it to Bridged mono?

Just let me know if you guys are getting tired of all these
questions:).....My head is like a sponge now. The more i learn the
more i want to learn.

i uploaded a schematic onto abse it's in Microsoft Office .rtf form i
had to convert it from PDF to be able to print it properly
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here we go again:)

I just checked the schematics and i don't see any a1492 or c3856
listed on there at all
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Haaky said:
Ok i see i'm using a GFE type fuse when i should be using a GDC type
fuse i was gonna ask how to tell the difference.
I almost missed that line above my quote.

So i guess a GFE fuse is just an ordinary run of the mill every day
fuse And a GDC would be a slow blow.

Now are Time Delayed and Slow Blow fuses the same thing or are they
different.

They are in principle the same thing but a US 'slo-blo' and a European/International
'T' have slightly different fusing characteristics. Not different enough to worry
about in this case though.

Man you know how much this would cost me if i was to take a course and
my local collage to find this stuff out:):):):):)

LOTS !

I think we narrowed it down to me having to use the proper fuse. Which
obviously i am not using in the amp

I'm surprised this didn't happen along time ago. Maybe because of the
new part that was installed.

What type was it before that part failed though ? It was probably originally the right
type.

Graham
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
They are in principle the same thing but a US 'slo-blo' and a European/International
'T' have slightly different fusing characteristics. Not different enough to worry
about in this case though.


LOTS !



What type was it before that part failed though ? It was probably originally the right
type.

Graham

The fuse that went when all this trouble started was the same type
that i'm replacing 250V 6.3A
No "T" type or slow blow. I never had a fuse go until i had the
problem with the output.

I'm about to turn the amp on right now and see what happens. I'm gonna
check and see if i can get the 7A slow blow fuse from the repair shop
I checked radio shack and they didn't have them in the mini fuses
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Haaky said:
Here we go again:)

I just checked the schematics and i don't see any a1492 or c3856
listed on there at all

It would seem that your transistors have been subbed when it was repaired.
This is not uncommon, and I have on occasion done it myself, although where
possible, I prefer to use original types, even down to actually obtaining
them from the equipment manufacturer, rather than a third party general
spares supplier.

Theoretically, the transistors should indeed match on both channels, as your
schematic suggests. Sometimes however, particular types are either difficult
to obtain, or prohibitively expensive. Most repair people will have their
own favourite substitute types to use in cases like this. Usually, these
substitute parts are chosen to be better rated than the types that they are
replacing, so don't cause a problem. In general, the output transistors are
just meaty current carriers, and for the most part, due to the large amounts
of feedback being employed, and automatic bias stabilisation, their exact
characteristics are not that important. Occasionally though, an output
circuit design is critical of such parameters as transistor gain, and
substitute devices just will not work well in it. This usually manifests
itself, however, as symptoms like long-term overheating, and a failure of
the bias circuit to operate correctly. Also, some output stages use
darlington transistors, which of course cannot be substituted with 'normal'
types, and in fact I would not recommend that they be replaced with anything
other than originals.

Without going and looking up the differences between what was originally
fitted, and what is now, I wouldn't like to say for sure whether they are
valid substitute types, but I'm willing to bet that they will probably be
OK, and are not the cause of the problem, as you said previously that when
it is running, it does not overheat, and sounds fine.

Fuse blowing at switch on is not something that you would normally consider
to be output stage related, unless it is a 'hard' fault such as a short
circuit device, in which case, the amp would never be able to work. I still
think that all you need, is to get the correct fuse type in there, and all
will be well. If the type that is in there is indeed a fast blow, as
Graham's research would suggest, then it is not a valid type for that
position, and will blow in just the way that you are seeing. Also, as Graham
says, slo-blo and " T " rated are not quite the same on paper, but to all
intents and purposes for this discussion, they can both be treated as
'equivalent' anti-surge types. Get the right fuse in there, and then come
back to us in a couple of weeks and tell us that it's OK now.

Arfa
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Haaky said:
The fuse that went when all this trouble started was the same type
that i'm replacing 250V 6.3A
No "T" type or slow blow. I never had a fuse go until i had the
problem with the output.

You were just lucky I reckon in that case.

I'm about to turn the amp on right now and see what happens. I'm gonna
check and see if i can get the 7A slow blow fuse from the repair shop
I checked radio shack and they didn't have them in the mini fuses

Forget 7 amps, it's a non-preferred value and not ultra-critical anyway.

Just get a 20mm 6.3A slow-blow ( T ) fuse. I gave you a link to Radio Shack's part number
for it earlier if you can't get it anywhere else.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102764&cp

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
Without going and looking up the differences between what was originally
fitted, and what is now, I wouldn't like to say for sure whether they are
valid substitute types, but I'm willing to bet that they will probably be
OK, and are not the cause of the problem, as you said previously that when
it is running, it does not overheat, and sounds fine.

The replacements are slightly higher wattage ( 130W in place of 100W ) but lower
fT ( 20MHz rather than 60MHz ) .

It's conceivable that the replacements may be causing ultrasonic oscillation
/instability. That would tie up with the observed effects.

Graham
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
The replacements are slightly higher wattage ( 130W in place of 100W ) but
lower
fT ( 20MHz rather than 60MHz ) .

It's conceivable that the replacements may be causing ultrasonic
oscillation
/instability. That would tie up with the observed effects.

Graham
Agreed possible. Would depend on how quickly the fuse blows after the on /
off switch is made. I would expect there to be a short delay before a
hooting output built up enough oomph to draw the current necessary to blow a
6 odd amp primary fuse. I got the impression that this fuse was going out
pretty much immediately that the switch was closed, and also without any
signs of distress, which would indicate to me that it was breaking just
through metal fatigue from repeated inrush-surge sagging events. A hooting
output stage would blow it as a result of pulling excess current, which at
the high frequency the instability would be occuring at, the tranny's
inductance would probably try to limit anyway. A fuse which has blown as a
result of an excess downstream current, usually shows as having a melted
middle, with blobs on the ends of the broken wire. I reckon that it will all
be ok with the proper fuse in it.

Arfa
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
It would seem that your transistors have been subbed when it was repaired.
This is not uncommon, and I have on occasion done it myself, although where
possible, I prefer to use original types, even down to actually obtaining
them from the equipment manufacturer, rather than a third party general
spares supplier.

Theoretically, the transistors should indeed match on both channels, as your
schematic suggests. Sometimes however, particular types are either difficult
to obtain, or prohibitively expensive. Most repair people will have their
own favourite substitute types to use in cases like this. Usually, these
substitute parts are chosen to be better rated than the types that they are
replacing, so don't cause a problem. In general, the output transistors are
just meaty current carriers, and for the most part, due to the large amounts
of feedback being employed, and automatic bias stabilisation, their exact
characteristics are not that important. Occasionally though, an output
circuit design is critical of such parameters as transistor gain, and
substitute devices just will not work well in it. This usually manifests
itself, however, as symptoms like long-term overheating, and a failure of
the bias circuit to operate correctly. Also, some output stages use
darlington transistors, which of course cannot be substituted with 'normal'
types, and in fact I would not recommend that they be replaced with anything
other than originals.

Without going and looking up the differences between what was originally
fitted, and what is now, I wouldn't like to say for sure whether they are
valid substitute types, but I'm willing to bet that they will probably be
OK, and are not the cause of the problem, as you said previously that when
it is running, it does not overheat, and sounds fine.

Fuse blowing at switch on is not something that you would normally consider
to be output stage related, unless it is a 'hard' fault such as a short
circuit device, in which case, the amp would never be able to work. I still
think that all you need, is to get the correct fuse type in there, and all
will be well. If the type that is in there is indeed a fast blow, as
Graham's research would suggest, then it is not a valid type for that
position, and will blow in just the way that you are seeing. Also, as Graham
says, slo-blo and " T " rated are not quite the same on paper, but to all
intents and purposes for this discussion, they can both be treated as
'equivalent' anti-surge types. Get the right fuse in there, and then come
back to us in a couple of weeks and tell us that it's OK now.

Arfa

I think you nailed it on the head. It did seem strange to see the
different output trans in there. I'm thinking that because if that
whoever owned the amp before
me must have had it in for repair. Or it might have even come from the
factory that way. Due to shortage of parts.

I'm going to grab the "Proper" fuses for the amp and see how they
work. Right now i believe that is the only problem with the amp.

It's always better to get different points of views. Especially from
people that have more experience in this stuff than me.

Having said that, it's kinda like a blessing in disguise. Cause after
reading all i can read about it and all this info i've been getting i
really want to get into
the electronic repair more. I'm gonna sign up for some courses and the
collage and get into this. I find really fascinating a shit if
something goes wrong i'm the type of person that would rather fix it
myself.

I did that with cars, construction, computers why not take the next
step and get into electronics. I have to admit some of the stuff is a
little over my head. But i'm understanding so much more now. It's so
cool

Thanks for the help guys, you've put my mind at ease and i know where
to come for help in the future
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
You were just lucky I reckon in that case.


Forget 7 amps, it's a non-preferred value and not ultra-critical anyway.

Just get a 20mm 6.3A slow-blow ( T ) fuse. I gave you a link to Radio Shack's part number
for it earlier if you can't get it anywhere else.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102764&cp

Graham

Thanks bud for all the info. Exactly what i'm gonna do. I'm glad we
got it narrowed down. I believe that's all the problem is now.
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:22:53 -0800, Haaky Has Frothed:

[SNIP]
I think you nailed it on the head. It did seem strange to see the
different output trans in there. I'm thinking that because if that
whoever owned the amp before
me must have had it in for repair. Or it might have even come from the
factory that way. Due to shortage of parts.

There are always tell-tale marks when components have been de/resoldered.
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:22:53 -0800, Haaky Has Frothed:

[SNIP]
I think you nailed it on the head. It did seem strange to see the
different output trans in there. I'm thinking that because if that
whoever owned the amp before
me must have had it in for repair. Or it might have even come from the
factory that way. Due to shortage of parts.

There are always tell-tale marks when components have been de/resoldered.

I'm gonna check under the circuit board just out of curiosity.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Meat Plow said:
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:22:53 -0800, Haaky Has Frothed:

[SNIP]
I think you nailed it on the head. It did seem strange to see the
different output trans in there. I'm thinking that because if that
whoever owned the amp before
me must have had it in for repair. Or it might have even come from the
factory that way. Due to shortage of parts.

There are always tell-tale marks when components have been de/resoldered.

My old apprentice mentor many many years back, told me that the only way you
should be able to tell that a component has been replaced, is if the
soldering is *better* than the manufacturers original ! A good maxim I
think, and one that has stuck by me for my whole life in the business. I
never use too little solder on a joint, nor too much, and always clean off
the flux residue.

Arfa
 
H

Haaky

Jan 1, 1970
0
[SNIP]
I think you nailed it on the head. It did seem strange to see the
different output trans in there. I'm thinking that because if that
whoever owned the amp before
me must have had it in for repair. Or it might have even come from the
factory that way. Due to shortage of parts.
There are always tell-tale marks when components have been de/resoldered.

My old apprentice mentor many many years back, told me that the only way you
should be able to tell that a component has been replaced, is if the
soldering is *better* than the manufacturers original ! A good maxim I
think, and one that has stuck by me for my whole life in the business. I
never use too little solder on a joint, nor too much, and always clean off
the flux residue.

Arfa

I like that.
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
Meat Plow said:
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:22:53 -0800, Haaky Has Frothed:

[SNIP]
I think you nailed it on the head. It did seem strange to see the
different output trans in there. I'm thinking that because if that
whoever owned the amp before
me must have had it in for repair. Or it might have even come from the
factory that way. Due to shortage of parts.

There are always tell-tale marks when components have been de/resoldered.

My old apprentice mentor many many years back, told me that the only way you
should be able to tell that a component has been replaced, is if the
soldering is *better* than the manufacturers original ! A good maxim I
think, and one that has stuck by me for my whole life in the business. I
never use too little solder on a joint, nor too much, and always clean off
the flux residue.

Arfa

As do I but I've seen some real hack jobs in my days.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Meat Plow said:
Meat Plow said:
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:22:53 -0800, Haaky Has Frothed:

[SNIP]
I think you nailed it on the head. It did seem strange to see the
different output trans in there. I'm thinking that because if that
whoever owned the amp before
me must have had it in for repair. Or it might have even come from the
factory that way. Due to shortage of parts.

There are always tell-tale marks when components have been
de/resoldered.

My old apprentice mentor many many years back, told me that the only way
you
should be able to tell that a component has been replaced, is if the
soldering is *better* than the manufacturers original ! A good maxim I
think, and one that has stuck by me for my whole life in the business. I
never use too little solder on a joint, nor too much, and always clean
off
the flux residue.

Arfa

As do I but I've seen some real hack jobs in my days.
I sometimes wonder how some of the work that I see has lasted as long as it
has. I can't believe that anyone can have made such scruffy-looking, and
sometimes even mechanically and electrically poor joints, and been satisfied
to declare the job " a good 'un ", and send it on its way !! I
contract-repair large quantities of a power driver board that comes from a
particular drinks vending machine. I took this work from another repair
outfit, because the drinks machine suppliers, were not happy with the long
term reliability that they were getting on the repairs. I still see ones
that he repaired a couple of years ago, coming back now. Electrically, the
repairs were OK, but you have never seen such scruffy work in all your life.
It looks as though the joints were made with a poker heated in the fire,
plumber's solder, and paste flux ... Often, link print between two adjacent
components, is missing, and the link has had to be made by bending over the
leg on the replaced component. It's criminal that such poor quality work
occurs, but more worryingly, if people such as this are carrying out
electronic repair work, are there similarly "qualified" people carrying out
work on your car ... ?

Arfa
 
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