Problem with Hbridge circuit?

J

Jamie

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jon said:
Well, I'm glad your such a god in everything.... Just wish I was as perfect
as you... maybe I should go should myself for being such an idiot?
No, I'm not a god and I'm not perfect, You just were not listening and
I can understand why. You were more interested in hearing answers to
resolve your problem instead of listening to why it wasn't working.

And as I said, depending on what type of load you have on that circuit
you can fix it.
Yes, those drivers are made for a half bridge circuit for which they
work just fine using all N channels fets.

change the code in the pic so that both low side fets come on during
the off cycle or, if you want to keep the driving low side on just turn
on the low side on the non driving side in the off cycle of the PWM.

This in effect will also cause braking if you were to
have something like a DC motor on the output otherwise, it'll just
discharge what ever else is there during the off cycle. If you see this
as a problem, then increase the carrier freq and use series
inductors/chokes in the load circuit to help with this.

You may find it to work fine simply by turning on the low side fet
that isn't supplying the low side drive to the load just to keep the
boost cap in check!

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
 
Yep. That's why I asked if the added diodes were fast-recovery
types.

if they are fast recovery really doesn't matter unless they turn on
and they won't unless they have a lower Vf than the (hot) fets


-Lasse
 
J

Jon Slaughter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jamie said:
No, I'm not a god and I'm not perfect, You just were not listening and
I can understand why. You were more interested in hearing answers to
resolve your problem instead of listening to why it wasn't working.

No, I wanted to know why it wasn't working. That is the reason I asked. It
does me no good to magically fix my problem without understanding it...
except that sometimes it does end up becoming a waste of trime trying to
figure out why it isn' t work.

The problem is that a lot of things you say seem to contradict my
understanding of how fundamentally the thing works... such as your next
statement

And as I said, depending on what type of load you have on that circuit
you can fix it.

Why does the load matter? Obviously it works with inductors because they
show all there schematics with them... and since I'm mainly using it with
inductors it should be ok... but a purely resistive load should work fine
just as long as its within spec. (in fact an inductive load is much worse
because of the inductive kickback... of course it's current is frequency
dependent but that is also not an issue)
Yes, those drivers are made for a half bridge circuit for which they
work just fine using all N channels fets.

Yes, which is why I thought you were nuts when you kept harping on P
channels. In fact it would be much easier to use P-ch and also cheaper...
But when I was researching different types for purchasing I could not find
any good p-ch and they tended to be more expensive(I was trying to find
larger current and low Rds_on and Nch were the best). I then read on several
sites that N-ch's were more popular because they were cheaper and more
efficient at the same task. (of course you then need a driver).


Since you need to drive both low and high sides with enough current I need a
driver anyways... so getting a driver that drives Nch high side isn't really
any worse than getting one that drives a p-ch high side.
change the code in the pic so that both low side fets come on during
the off cycle or, if you want to keep the driving low side on just turn
on the low side on the non driving side in the off cycle of the PWM.

I was thinking about that but when I read about it I remember someone saying
that its not efficient. (essientially you end up running the motor as a
generator on the "off" cycle and it then brakes itself instead of
freewheeling)

This seems like it might help with the problem of the boost caps though...
but there might be some cross-conduction involved causing the fets to heat
up more(probably not really but possible).
This in effect will also cause braking if you were to
have something like a DC motor on the output otherwise, it'll just
discharge what ever else is there during the off cycle. If you see this as
a problem, then increase the carrier freq and use series inductors/chokes
in the load circuit to help with this.

Yeah, that was the problem I was talking about. It seems much worse than
leaving the fet off... of course this was before I found out that that the
chip didn't work as I thought ;/

You may find it to work fine simply by turning on the low side fet that
isn't supplying the low side drive to the load just to keep the
boost cap in check!

yes, probably so but also might cause other problems.

I'm wondering if there is simply a way to trick the boost part into
charging/discharging but I cant' see it without making the circuit more
complicated.

I think its probably best to just try and find a better driver that doesn't
use that trick or to use some discrete fet's (dual n and p ch in cmos
config) and p ch high side.

I think the cost will be about the same and it will be easier to
troubleshoot and route.. I was just trying to minimize the heat dissipation
of the fets as much as possible. (IIRC the p-ch had almost 2x the on
resistance of equivalent n-ch and about 1.3x the cost if not more)
 
J

Jon Slaughter

Jan 1, 1970
0
legg said:
Nfets are cheaper on a straight $perVA handling capability, due to fab
constraints at the wafer level.

Bootstrap gate drive is more versatile, simpler and cheaper than many
other options to drive high-side mosfets.

Try setting the pwm frequency in the pic controller to >1KHz, then
experiment with variations on the controller's duty cycle, based on
the known requirements of the drive method.

Still seems that the boost cap will not be discharged on the off cycle of
the pwm.

I probably can trick it though by hooking the boost cap to a small fet that
will ground out on the off cycle and go high on the on cycle? (of course
this seems like a waste and I'll probably not do it)

It's the PIC that is the most versatile element in your breadboard,
and possibly the area of the design that you're most comfortable with.

Beg, borrow or buy some kind of scope, for troubleshooting AC
circuits.


I have a pc scope but since I brought a new computer without a parallel port
I haven't been able to use it ;/ Since my MB is in about 5gal of vegtable
oil I haven't added an expansion card yet ;/ (just not looking forward to
adding the card because it will get messy ;/)
 
J

Jon Slaughter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joel Koltner said:
There are plenty of other ways that are just as good, but I'm not aware of
any that are simpler or easier; it's a very common scheme.


They are, just not at really low frequencies (unless you start using a
really big caps). There's the additional presumption that, if you leave
the bridge off for awhile, it's OK if it takes a few switching cycles
before it's fully "working" again when you resume operation.


well, do normal h-bridge circuits toggle the non-conducting path's low side
fet so that the boost can work?

i.e., basically in my configuration for running the motor, I was planing on
only PWM one high side fet and let the opposite low side be in conduction
while the other two fets were always off(preventing cross conduction). Of
course when I wanted reverse I would flip this configuration.

I know I can ~PWM the low side of the same side as the high side that is
being PWM and that seems like it will make the thing work but I didn't do
this when I designed it(although its not big deal to implement as I just
have to output a ~PWM signal from my pic) because I wanted to avoid cross
conduction... just, say, incase the ~PWM transitions overlap with the PWM
transitions causing both to be on for too long(say if my transitions are not
very fast for some reason).

I guess though that I probably don't need to change anything on my circuit
and just increase the PWM frequency and include the ~PWM to the proper low
side. When I get some new IC's in I'll go ahead and do that and hopefully it
will work.
 
J

Jon Slaughter

Jan 1, 1970
0
if they are fast recovery really doesn't matter unless they turn on
and they won't unless they have a lower Vf than the (hot) fets

I imagined that they couldn't hurt anything (since either the fet's diode or
the discrete diode will work by themselfs).
 
L

legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Still seems that the boost cap will not be discharged on the off cycle of
the pwm.

I probably can trick it though by hooking the boost cap to a small fet that
will ground out on the off cycle and go high on the on cycle? (of course
this seems like a waste and I'll probably not do it)




I have a pc scope but since I brought a new computer without a parallel port
I haven't been able to use it ;/ Since my MB is in about 5gal of vegtable
oil I haven't added an expansion card yet ;/ (just not looking forward to
adding the card because it will get messy ;/)

You got me.

I'm Slaughtered, and you're kill-filed.

RL
 
J

Jamie

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jon said:
well, do normal h-bridge circuits toggle the non-conducting path's low side
fet so that the boost can work?

i.e., basically in my configuration for running the motor, I was planing on
only PWM one high side fet and let the opposite low side be in conduction
while the other two fets were always off(preventing cross conduction). Of
course when I wanted reverse I would flip this configuration.

I know I can ~PWM the low side of the same side as the high side that is
being PWM and that seems like it will make the thing work but I didn't do
this when I designed it(although its not big deal to implement as I just
have to output a ~PWM signal from my pic) because I wanted to avoid cross
conduction... just, say, incase the ~PWM transitions overlap with the PWM
transitions causing both to be on for too long(say if my transitions are not
very fast for some reason).

I guess though that I probably don't need to change anything on my circuit
and just increase the PWM frequency and include the ~PWM to the proper low
side. When I get some new IC's in I'll go ahead and do that and hopefully it
will work.
Just change the code in the pic to turn on the low side FET that needs
to charge the cap and turn off the other low side fet that is acting
like the low side load path. DO this in the off cycle and you'll get
what you're looking for with out the problem of regen drain in your circuit.
Normally, full bridges fully turn off during the off cycle accept
if they wish to have regen braking to help slow down a motor or for
a fast stop in which case, both low side fets can be locked on.

P.S.
You may want to have a small cap or a bi-directional TVS diode
across the output of the bridge so that when it goes into H-Z mode
you'll won't have a problem of wheeling voltages at the bridge.



http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
 
J

Jon Slaughter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just change the code in the pic to turn on the low side FET that needs to
charge the cap and turn off the other low side fet that is acting like the
low side load path. DO this in the off cycle and you'll get what you're
looking for with out the problem of regen drain in your circuit.
Normally, full bridges fully turn off during the off cycle accept
if they wish to have regen braking to help slow down a motor or for
a fast stop in which case, both low side fets can be locked on.

Thats what I'm going to try...
 
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