Re: Strange problem with low energy light bulb

J

John Phillips

Jan 1, 1970
0
I haven't been counting the precise hours but the ones I've had have lasted a
long, long time.

I'm just onto my second set of CFLs (GE) in the living room. I estimate
the first set (Osram, 23W, bought at great expense some eight years ago),
lasted for between 7,300 and 8,800 hours of actual use.

The Osram 23W in the kitchen is original and eight years old. It doesn't
do so many hours but it does get switched on and off very frequently.
So I am not convinced of the argument I occasionally see that on/off
cycles kill CFLs.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Phillips"
The Osram 23W in the kitchen is original and eight years old. It doesn't
do so many hours but it does get switched on and off very frequently.
So I am not convinced of the argument I occasionally see that on/off
cycles kill CFLs.



** It kills the ones that are designed to start and reach full output very
quickly.

The heaters are run hotter in them and have high initial current levels.

Many independent tests have been done to verify the destructive effect of
many short cycles and it IS true.


........ Phil
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mr.T said:
"Eeyore" wrote


120V, or 240V like we have here?
240V.


Mine never last a year, standard fluoro tubes however last for 10 years or
more.
I know which I prefer!

The years depend on hours use per day of course but I have some that are used a
lot of the time (hall lighting for example) and I've had several years use from
them. Maybe around 3 years.

Graham
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mr.T said:
In Australia the "reputable makes" are simply rebadged Chinese shit as
well.
Are you sure you are not simply being fooled as well?

MrT.

That's very possible, and illustrates the point that if we, as people 'in
the know' can't tell if we are being sold genuine 'good' ones at a
subsidised price, badged Chinese shit at what *looks* like a good price, or
genuine Chinese shit at what's probably a realistic price, then how is Joe
Public going to stand any chance ?

We can all be fooled. Our governments do it to us all the time ...

Arfa
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
That's very possible, and illustrates the point that if we, as people 'in
the know' can't tell if we are being sold genuine 'good' ones at a
subsidised price, badged Chinese shit at what *looks* like a good price, or
genuine Chinese shit at what's probably a realistic price, then how is Joe
Public going to stand any chance ?

We can all be fooled. Our governments do it to us all the time ...

Arfa

well, here in the UK the country of origin must be marked on the pack.

d
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Pearce said:
well, here in the UK the country of origin must be marked on the pack.

d
That's true Don, but be honest, how often do you look at such stuff ?

Arfa
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
That's true Don, but be honest, how often do you look at such stuff ?

Arfa

Just had a good think about that, and do you know? Pretty much every
time.

Then I go "hmmmm" and buy it anyway.

d
 
N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
But also factor in the many more processes and transport movements to make
that one CFL. The PCB material has to be made. That then has to be shipped
to a PCB manufacturer, and from there to the lamp manufacturer. All of the
components on the PCB have to be made and shipped, and the materials to make
*them* made and shipped. Just think of an electrolytic cap for instance,
There's aluminium, steel, nickel, copper, rubber, paper, acid. Switching
tranny has copper, ferrite, steel, nickel, glue. Semicons have similar
metals plus silicon plus doping agents plus plastic. Every one of those
items has it's own manufacturing processes, spread all over the world, all
using energy, and no doubt creating their own pollutants. Plus workers that
have to be transported to and from a factory that has to be kept warm ( or
air-co'd ) and lit. They also have to be fed whilst they are there. Each
transport operation is another inefficient energy user, as the weight of the
transporting vehicle has to be shifted every time, as well as the load it is
carrying. Shifting the weight of a ship or aircraft is significant compared
to the weight of cargo it carries. Once all of those parts have arrived at
Philips or wherever, then they have to be assembled up into a CFL. I don't
really see how this whole process doesn't constitute "exporting pollution"
??

Also factor in the 'proper' recycling that is going to have to be done in
order for them to comply with the WEEE directive which already exists, but
for some reason, does not seem to be being applied to these devices at this
time. Clearly, the energy budget calculation for the manufacturing, lifetime
use, and disposal of these CFLs is very complex and probably almost
impossible to actually do with any accuracy but, when it comes down to it,
I'm willing to bet that there would not actually be much in it when compared
to manufacturing, using and disposing of 10 incandescents with their very
limited materials, processes and transport counts.

Unfortunately, these lamps are just another example of eco-hype, where it is
very easy to fool the average punter ( and politician, it would seem ) with
a bit of pseudo science regarding their apparent 'green' credentials with
regard to power consumption and lifetime. I don't dispute that they have
their place, and in pure terms of how much money they are going to take out
of my pocket in running costs, they almost certainly win over incandescents.
However, as others have mentioned, the light that they produce is not very
pleasant to 'use', nor is it very decorative, no matter how the
manufacturers mix up the phosphors to try to match the colour temperature of
an incandescent. Also, as Don says, where the useage period is short, and
there is not enough time for them to warm up properly, or where instant full
light is required, as when entering a room in the dark, they are less than
satisfactory. This problem is exacerbated in Northern Europe winters, where
it is both dark AND cold ...

Arfa

The colour supplement
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/0,,180242,00.html
of this paper on Saturday had pictures( p5 5,38,39 )of the end result of
those otherwise empty shipping containers going back to the east and WEEE
directive.
For little more than the admin costs they can fill the containers with our
e-waste. Mountains of CRTs , circuit boards having been heat stripped of
components , lead and tin and dumped in the Indian countryside.
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Don Pearce"


** Nope.



** See the average lamp hours figure has dropped by 25% ???
750 to 1000 hours is pretty normal for the lifetime of a 240V bulb, so
no, there isn't a lifetime penalty.
** So is the reduced life rating.

The data is taken off the marketing blurbs on maker's web sites, so is
basically bollocks and non comparable .
You got something better?

d
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Don Pearce Fuckwit Pommy **** "

750 to 1000 hours is pretty normal for the lifetime of a 240V bulb, so
no, there isn't a lifetime penalty.


** Looks like a nasty 25 % one to any sane person - CUNTHEAD !!


You got something better?



** YOU are the one that needs BETTER - ARSEHOLE .

A whole lot better than some bollocks on wiki.

Maybe try a nice net blog ??

If you ever get out of those *bogs* you like tolling.



....... Phil
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Don Pearce Fuckwit Pommy **** "




** Looks like a nasty 25 % one to any sane person - CUNTHEAD !!

Oh dear, poor Phil. Too wound up to even read the table. Take another
look and you will see that the 120V column contains a mixture of 750
and 1000 hour bulbs. Your assertion that 120V displays a 25% drop over
240V simply isn't borne out.
** YOU are the one that needs BETTER - ARSEHOLE .

A whole lot better than some bollocks on wiki.

Maybe try a nice net blog ??

If you ever get out of those *bogs* you like tolling.
I've heard of tolling bells, but not bogs. Is this some sort of
Australian hobby?

Q. What noise does it make when Phil tolls his bog?
A. Dung!

d
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Don Pearce Fuckwit Pommy **** "
Take another
look and you will see that the 120V column contains a mixture of 750
and 1000 hour bulbs.


** The 100 watt lamp example YOU raised is 750 and so are most of them.

CUNTHEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your assertion that 120V displays a 25% drop over
240V simply isn't borne out.


** Is too in the example YOU raised - CUNTHEAD !!




I've heard of tolling bells, but not bogs.


** Only an autistic, gay pedo maggot would make that remark.




...... Phil
 
D

Don Pearce

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Don Pearce Fuckwit Pommy **** "


** The 100 watt lamp example YOU raised is 750 and so are most of them.

CUNTHEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never mind, Phil. The nurse will be along soon. Didn't she promise to
take you to basket weaving classes tomorrow?
** Is too in the example YOU raised - CUNTHEAD !!







** Only an autistic, gay pedo maggot would make that remark.
I'll just have to leave that to you, I'm afraid.

d
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Don Pearce"


** Only an autistic, gay pedo maggot would make that remark.





....... Phil
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Pearce said:
Just had a good think about that, and do you know? Pretty much every
time.

Then I go "hmmmm" and buy it anyway.

d

Point made then !!

Arfa
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ony for a good one at the start of it's life. They get even dimmer with use
though.

I see 1710, 1730 and 1750 on packages having "standard" incandescents,
as low as 1670 for 750 hour soft white.

The lowest wattage CFLs I have seen produce 1700-plus lumens are the
Philips 25 watt SLS (1750 lumens) and 26 watt spirals.

I think some 18 watt ones produce 1200 lumens. A standard 75W
incandescent (120V 750 hour) produces 1190-1210 lumens. So optimistically
an 18W CFL in new condition will match that.

They're probably comparing to an industrial service 60W incandescent,
which does indeed produce only about 600 lumens.

In my experience, a 13W CFL in new condition matches a 60W standard
incandescent when things are going well for the CFL.

The usual actual "standard incandescent" equivalences of CFLs in new
condition:

9W spiral - 40 watts

13W spiral - optimistically 60 watts
15W spiral - 60 watts fairly easily

18-20W spirals - 75 watts

23 watt spirals - between 75 and 100, good to perform as well as a 75
after they have aged or are running at non-optimum temperature.

25 watt Philips and 26 watt spirals - 100 watts

30 watt spirals - 100 watts after aging or when temperature is non-optimum
Me too, and those equally silly 8,000 hour claims.

That is for 3 hours per start in a 25 degree C ambient. This is the
actual industry standard for fluorescents. I think that a more
appropriate one for incandescent-replacement CFLs should be 1 hour per
start in a 40 degree C ambient.

Meanwhile, I do have CFLs normally last a few thousand hours.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected], http://www.misty.com/~don/cfx.html)
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Which do fail.


Never had one that lasted "years", and I've used dozens.
12-18 months is the best I've had, zero being the worst.

I had plenty last a few thousand actual operating hours, some that get
switched more maybe 2,000-3,000. Most of mine lasted a few years.
Of course, and turning off lights when not in use saves more power than
leaving CFL's on.


Wow, and how much power can you save by turning them off?
My outdoor lights are solar powered.


Not all. I did buy a two part CFL once, and when the tube failed, no
replacements are available.

Was that a Lights of America product? I have noticed a lot of
complaints about them. A few are for making products that require
proprietary bulbs that they since discontinued. More are for
life/reliability issues and for falling short of claimed light output.

If it was not LOA, then chances are the tubes are industry standard ones
with replacements of GE, Philips, and Osram/Sylvania being available.
Look in home centers, hardwares stores, and electrical/lighting supply
shops.
Back to standard tubes for me!

The standard ones are superior. CFLs are mainly for retrofitting
incandescent fixtures or for use in small fixtures of size like that of
incandescent fixtures.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
G

GPE

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
I haven't been counting the precise hours but the ones I've had have
lasted a
long, long time.

Graham

I've had ones that I counted the lifespan in seconds. Burned out before I
got off the ladder when replacing them....

-- Ed
 
S

Sjouke Burry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
well, here in the UK the country of origin must be marked on the pack.

d
And what if they are repacked in a remote corner
of your country.
We have had that done to real DUTCH apples, from
Italy ect.
And your supplying country from the east is quite
willing to put any text on the device and package......
 
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