redi-line printed circuit board reverse engineering?

[William Wixon]

i bought a redi-line generator on eBay a while back. it's knackered. among
other things there was no printed circuit board. i paid over $200 for it.
i contacted a company that sells parts, they said $430 for the circuit
board. i started out trying to buy the redi-line to SAVE money. i was
wondering if you guys think it might be possible to "reverse engineer" a
circuit board. i don't know jack about electronics. i was wondering if i
can get ahold of a circuit board if anyone here would be willing to advise
me on how to solder up a copy. or, if someone is an electronics guru and
has a redi-line circuit board if they could tell/show/assist me how to make
a copy.

b.w.

 

[Eeyore]

i bought a redi-line generator on eBay a while back. it's knackered.

Complain to ebay you MORON for non-supply of goods.

 

[Eeyore]

i bought a redi-line generator on eBay a while back. it's knackered. among
other things there was no printed circuit board. i paid over $200 for it.
i contacted a company that sells parts, they said $430 for the circuit
board. i started out trying to buy the redi-line to SAVE money. i was
wondering if you guys think it might be possible to "reverse engineer" a
circuit board. i don't know jack about electronics.

That's a great start !

i was wondering if i
can get ahold of a circuit board if anyone here would be willing to advise
me on how to solder up a copy. or, if someone is an electronics guru and
has a redi-line circuit board if they could tell/show/assist me how to make
a copy.

FORGET IT.

 

[EXT]

If it was even possible, making the board then buying all the individual
components on it will in most cases cost more than buying one ready made.
Why did you buy a generator with missing parts, without returning it to the
seller.

 

[Neon John]

i bought a redi-line generator on eBay a while back. it's knackered. among
other things there was no printed circuit board. i paid over $200 for it.
i contacted a company that sells parts, they said $430 for the circuit
board. i started out trying to buy the redi-line to SAVE money. i was
wondering if you guys think it might be possible to "reverse engineer" a
circuit board. i don't know jack about electronics. i was wondering if i
can get ahold of a circuit board if anyone here would be willing to advise
me on how to solder up a copy. or, if someone is an electronics guru and
has a redi-line circuit board if they could tell/show/assist me how to make
a copy.

What indication do you have that it's supposed to have a board? Dangling
connectors? Schematic in the manual? Reason I ask is that most cheap
generators today use what is called "harmonic field excitation". With this
scheme there is an aux coil that is resonated to the 3rd harmonic with a motor
run-type capacitor. This excites the rotor that self-rectifies the energy
into the DC it needs to be a field.

this kind of generator has no slip rings and no electronics.

I know that you said that you got a quote for a board but it wouldn't be the
first time that a company had built two types of generators in the same
general design. Or that a company had quoted for a non-existent part.

Regulator boards are dirt simple. I thought the quote for my Rigorinni
diesel's generator was outrageous at $100. Do you have a schematic? Manual?
Preferably an on-line manual that you can post a URL to. If you do, then I
can probably help you adapt the regulator for another brand of generator.
Yamaha parts aren't too bad, for example, and one of their older generator
regulator boards is almost a universal replacement.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I like you ... you remind me of me when I was young and stupid.

 

[William Wixon]

If it was even possible, making the board then buying all the individual
components on it will in most cases cost more than buying one ready made.
Why did you buy a generator with missing parts, without returning it to
the seller.

i posted a message about this many months/years ago (and there was a small
uproar amongst the members of this list in my defense, thanks), when i
bought this thing off eBay. the auction said "works good" and "as is". i
figured if i returned this thing to the guy (dirtbag) i'd have a fight on my
hands getting him to send me back my money (based on my past experiences on
eBay). i figured i was going to have to eat this thing. plus it weighs a
LOT. i didn't want to have to pay the shipping costs back to him, and then
have him screw me by not returning my money (i was afraid he'd defend his
actions by his vague item listing "works good"/"as is"). i prolly
shouldn't've bought it, i was overly eager, my mistake. i didn't
intentionally buy a generator with missing parts. i figured if i sent it
back to him (dirtbag) he'd keep the generator AND my money. i figured i got
screwed. i'm trying to rescue this deal by trying to see if i could solder
up a circuit board myself (and not pay the $400 for the ready made board).
i'm hoping buying the individual components won't be $400. i'm imagining
the price of the board has nothing to do with the cost of the components but
that they're the only dealer in the northeast and through their dealer
network the company has the parts availability sewn up tight.

b.w.

 

[William Wixon]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:58:34 -0600, "William Wixon"
<[email protected]>
wrote:


What indication do you have that it's supposed to have a board? Dangling
connectors? Schematic in the manual? Reason I ask is that most cheap
generators today use what is called "harmonic field excitation". With
this
scheme there is an aux coil that is resonated to the 3rd harmonic with a
motor
run-type capacitor. This excites the rotor that self-rectifies the energy
into the DC it needs to be a field.

this kind of generator has no slip rings and no electronics.

I know that you said that you got a quote for a board but it wouldn't be
the
first time that a company had built two types of generators in the same
general design. Or that a company had quoted for a non-existent part.

Regulator boards are dirt simple. I thought the quote for my Rigorinni
diesel's generator was outrageous at $100. Do you have a schematic?
Manual?
Preferably an on-line manual that you can post a URL to. If you do, then
I
can probably help you adapt the regulator for another brand of generator.
Yamaha parts aren't too bad, for example, and one of their older generator
regulator boards is almost a universal replacement.

John

Thanks John,
this might be a matter of giving a thing it's proper name. i used the word
"generator" because that's the word they use in their service manual, etc.
i can't remember what this thing is called properly, an "inverter", or a
"DC/AC inverter", "rotary inverter", "electric/electric generator"? they
refer to it as a generator though.

my indications are there were dangling wires and the parts
list/illustration.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/circuitboard.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/partslist.jpg

(part number "7")

i couldn't find a schematic but i only did a brief search. there's a
manual.

http://www.rediline.com/rediline.pdf

page 76 or 78 (i don't know why they have two illustrations of exactly the
same thing.

i can't remember if my redi-line inverter is the "earliest version" the
"interim version" or the "current version" but to me it looks like the only
component that's different between the three is the circuit board and so if
i could i'd like to upgrade mine to the "current version" anyhow.

i'm guessing it's not really possible for anyone here to help me. i just
figured i'd mention it just in case someone happened to have a "step by step
instructions on how to make a redi-line circuit board" website somewhere.


thanks for your efforts thus far.

b.w.

 

[Neon John]

Thanks John,
this might be a matter of giving a thing it's proper name. i used the word
"generator" because that's the word they use in their service manual, etc.
i can't remember what this thing is called properly, an "inverter", or a
"DC/AC inverter", "rotary inverter", "electric/electric generator"? they
refer to it as a generator though.

"rotary converter" is the formal name, though more commonly it's known by a
genericized trademark "Dynamotor".

i couldn't find a schematic but i only did a brief search. there's a
manual.

http://www.rediline.com/rediline.pdf

page 76 or 78 (i don't know why they have two illustrations of exactly the
same thing.

i can't remember if my redi-line inverter is the "earliest version" the
"interim version" or the "current version" but to me it looks like the only
component that's different between the three is the circuit board and so if
i could i'd like to upgrade mine to the "current version" anyhow.

i'm guessing it's not really possible for anyone here to help me. i just
figured i'd mention it just in case someone happened to have a "step by step
instructions on how to make a redi-line circuit board" website somewhere.

OK, which particular unit do you have?

Guess what? You almost assuredly don't need the PCB. As I look at the manual
more closely, I think that all the PCB does is detect when a load is applied
and start the thing. Like an "economy throttle" on a generator that throttles
down the engine when there is no load. It is probable that the board is not
needed at all if you don't mind simply turning the thing on and off manually.
The unit has a permanent magnet field (page 56 for the large frame unit.)

The first thing that I suggest you do is hook it up to 12 volts and perform
the test on page 49. If the machine starts, runs and outputs the proper
voltage and frequency then the card is not needed. Simply wire up a manual
switch instead of the jumper. The switch will be the manual start/stop
switch.

It may very well be that the sleazebay seller has already installed this
jumper and was truthfully saying that it ran OK. If you want an auto-start,
that's probably doable too, but let's check out the manual operation first.



If, for some reason, things aren't right, here's what you need to do before we
can proceed:

1) get an internal connection diagram. Perhaps the factory will supply you
with one or you can trace out the wires and draw it yourself. In particular,
the details of the PCB connector. How many wires, where each goes, etc.

2) open the thing up and take some photos. I'm particularly interested in the
rotor/armature, the socket that connects to the PCB, any components in the
"doghouse" other than the PCB and physical wiring. when you have 'em ready,
post 'em somewhere so I can download them overnight at my pokey dial-up speed.
Leave the resolution high enough that I can zoom in and see details.

3) find the patent that they mention. Google patents is very good for that.
I'd search for the company name first.

Once we have these things in hand, then we'll proceed.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep.

 

[Winston]

William Wixon wrote:
(...)

i'm trying to rescue this deal by trying to see if i could solder
up a circuit board myself (and not pay the $400 for the ready made board).

Hi William,

I used to do PCB reverse engineering for a large company.

Here are some things to think about in descending order of importance:

1) For about $400 you can buy a brand new, tested, quasi-sinewave inverter
usable in the 1600 W range and just toss the redline generator in the scrap heap:
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=2560
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/check-prices.cfm?sSKU=PV3000HF

If you don't need that kind of power, you can buy a smaller inverter for
much less money. See for example this 1250 W unit for about $250.:
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=3056
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/check-prices.cfm?sSKU=PV1250FC

2) To do a proper job of RE, you need a fully functional PCB working in a
fully functional 'generator' (rotary converter). Ideally, you would have
two or more units to work with in case of misadventure. At the risk of
pointing out the obvious, if you already have two working rotary converters
you don't need a PCB.

3) A properly designed and fabricated replacement PCB will cost you many,
many multiples of $400. The parts are the least of it, unless the OEM is
using a component specially made for them. In that case, you are buying
parts from the OEM again while sinking hundreds of hours into a job
that someone else already completed, years ago.


--Winston

 

[Cydrome Leader]

William Wixon wrote:
(...)


Hi William,

I used to do PCB reverse engineering for a large company.

Here are some things to think about in descending order of importance:

1) For about $400 you can buy a brand new, tested, quasi-sinewave inverter
usable in the 1600 W range and just toss the redline generator in the scrap heap:
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=2560
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/check-prices.cfm?sSKU=PV3000HF

If you don't need that kind of power, you can buy a smaller inverter for
much less money. See for example this 1250 W unit for about $250.:
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=3056
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/check-prices.cfm?sSKU=PV1250FC

you don't want anything from tripp-lite. It's all junk, even their power strips are shoddy at best.

 

[Winston]

(...)

you don't want anything from tripp-lite. It's all junk, even their power strips are shoddy at best.

Well, OK I didn't intend to spam William with an ad.
My point is that if he wants AC from DC, he can get it for
far less time and money than he would spend re-engineering that
rotary converter.

For instance, I bought a Husky "750 W" inverter from my local Home Depot
for about US $60 (Sixty bux) about five years ago.
Identical to: http://www.gemplers.com/product/G50043/750-Watt-1500

It runs my power tools in the field quite easily and ran my full size
refrigerator from my car electrical system during the last power outage,
without overheating or complaint.
It ain't Xantrex - quality but it ain't Xantrex - spendy either.

Perhaps you can recommend a good vendor for William, Cyd?

--Winston

 

[Vaughn Simon]

Guess what? You almost assuredly don't need the PCB. As I look at the manual
more closely, I think that all the PCB does is detect when a load is applied
and start the thing.

I was just about to say the same thing when I saw John's post. I am
familiar with Redi-Line from years-ago experience, and agree that the circuit
board is probably just for load sensing. The ones that we had were always
connected to the battery, and only started when they had a load. I doubt that
there is any regulation involved. You can test your unit with a jumper. If it
works, you can probably substitute a high-current 12-volt relay for the printed
circuit, and manually start the unit with a small toggle. Be sure that the
relay you select has a continuous duty coil. It may look like a starter
solenoid, but is not quite the same thing!

Good luck
Vaughn

 

[Neon John]

Well, OK I didn't intend to spam William with an ad.
My point is that if he wants AC from DC, he can get it for
far less time and money than he would spend re-engineering that
rotary converter.

Inverters and rotary converters are NOT interchangeable unless the load is
mainly resistive. They have complimentary characteristics with little
overlap.

A rotary converter:

a) can handle huge momentary overloads because much energy is stored in the
rotating inertia of the armature.
b) can handle huge momentary overloads because there are no semiconductors to
overload.
c) draws very high idling current
d) produces a low distortion sine wave - vitally important for variable speed
SCR-controlled power tools.
e) is heavy
f) is noisy
g) is expensive

An Inverter:

a) cannot handle high momentary overloads for even a single cycle
b) blame the semiconductors
c) draws little to no idling current and is efficient at low loads
d) the typical cheap inverter produces a modified square wave that is good
enough for most things except variable speed power tools
e) is fairly light weight
f) is silent or perhaps emits a little fan noise
g) is cheap.

If you read the manual that he cited, you'll note that the rotary converter is
aimed at the construction trades where high inrush loads have to be started
very often. This device is used in preference to solid state inverters on
utility trucks for the same reason and for the additional reason that
electrical transients of a moderate nature won't affect the rotary converter.

He has a very valuable piece of hardware that certainly does NOT belong in the
trash bin. And as I noted in another post, the board isn't even needed if he
can live without the auto-start function. An auto-start board would be
trivial to design and build, especially if he can do the actually wiring
himself using perf board and/or wire wrap.

I'm reasonably certain that I've figured out how it works from various
operational details given in the manual and I can do the whole thing in an 8
pin PIC and a couple of capacitors and perhaps a relay.

JOhn
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I like you ... you remind me of me when I was young and stupid.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Well, OK I didn't intend to spam William with an ad.
My point is that if he wants AC from DC, he can get it for
far less time and money than he would spend re-engineering that
rotary converter.

For instance, I bought a Husky "750 W" inverter from my local Home Depot
for about US $60 (Sixty bux) about five years ago.
Identical to: http://www.gemplers.com/product/G50043/750-Watt-1500

It runs my power tools in the field quite easily and ran my full size
refrigerator from my car electrical system during the last power outage,
without overheating or complaint.
It ain't Xantrex - quality but it ain't Xantrex - spendy either.

Perhaps you can recommend a good vendor for William, Cyd?

Anything that's not tripp-lite would probably be fine, unless it's some
chinese inverter they just badge and didn't design themselves.

Their products are really that bad, even the items that were once made in
the US, then mexico.

 

[William Wixon]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:34:33 -0600, "William Wixon"
<[email protected]>
wrote:


OK, which particular unit do you have?

Guess what? You almost assuredly don't need the PCB. As I look at the
manual
more closely, I think that all the PCB does is detect when a load is
applied
and start the thing. Like an "economy throttle" on a generator that
throttles
down the engine when there is no load. It is probable that the board is
not
needed at all if you don't mind simply turning the thing on and off
manually.
The unit has a permanent magnet field (page 56 for the large frame unit.)

The first thing that I suggest you do is hook it up to 12 volts and
perform
the test on page 49. If the machine starts, runs and outputs the proper
voltage and frequency then the card is not needed. Simply wire up a
manual
switch instead of the jumper. The switch will be the manual start/stop
switch.

It may very well be that the sleazebay seller has already installed this
jumper and was truthfully saying that it ran OK. If you want an
auto-start,
that's probably doable too, but let's check out the manual operation
first.



If, for some reason, things aren't right, here's what you need to do
before we
can proceed:

1) get an internal connection diagram. Perhaps the factory will supply
you
with one or you can trace out the wires and draw it yourself. In
particular,
the details of the PCB connector. How many wires, where each goes, etc.

2) open the thing up and take some photos. I'm particularly interested in
the
rotor/armature, the socket that connects to the PCB, any components in the
"doghouse" other than the PCB and physical wiring. when you have 'em
ready,
post 'em somewhere so I can download them overnight at my pokey dial-up
speed.
Leave the resolution high enough that I can zoom in and see details.

3) find the patent that they mention. Google patents is very good for
that.
I'd search for the company name first.

Once we have these things in hand, then we'll proceed.

John

Hi John,
thanks very much for your help. i sent pacific scientific/danaher motion an
email asking for that info. i've been trying to be patient in waiting for a
reply. i couldn't wait any longer and called them. the guy i spoke with at
technical support told me redi-line rotary converters are dealer supported
products and he couldn't release to me any schematics. (of course. they
want me to bring my rotary converter to their distributor for them to repair
for me at $$$.) i called the local distributor a while ago (years?) and
they were very unhelpful, like, they wanted to fix it for me ($$$). i asked
the tech guy for the patent number and he wouldn't/couldn't give it to me.
i did check google patents (that's actually a very cool feature huh?!) and i
was swimming in hits. i'm going to have to go back there and search through
them some more. the disappointing thing is the patent might not (and
probably isn't) under "pacific scientific", i saw some patents there for
"demand start" circuitry listed under individual men's personal names. ugh.
that's going to be a lot of searching. i know this is crazy but what i'd
like to do is to buy another redi-line and make a copy of the board and sell
the second rotary converter. i'm going to keep trying. i'll post the
photos you requested.

thanks so much!

b.w.

(one more thing, these redi-line things have gone through a series of
owners/manufacturers. i think the current owner is the third owner. i'm
wondering if the patent changes names when the company is sold. doubt it
huh? i know these things used to be manufactured by honeywell, when i put
"honeywell" in the search field at google i got THOUSANDS of hits.)

 

[Neon John]

i know this is crazy but what i'd
like to do is to buy another redi-line and make a copy of the board and sell
the second rotary converter. i'm going to keep trying. i'll post the
photos you requested.

It shouldn't be hard to find another unit. After learning the hard way that
inverters and power tool motors don't work well together, many utilities and
other construction-related industries are going back to dynamotors and that's
about the only brand still available. Look and ask around. All you need to
reverse-engineer is a good high-res photo of the front and back of the board.

I'd want to duplicate the board's functionality and not the board itself. The
board's functionality is trivial - one should be able to duplicate it with a
fraction of what was involved back when. I suspect that a $1 PIC and a
handful of discrete components would do the job.

If you find one, drop a note. I have a couple of voltage measurements that
I'd like you to make.

what is your electronic skill level? If handed a schematic, could you draw
off a bill of materials and then turn it into a proto board using perf board
and/or wire-wrap? What kind of test equipment do you have? Do you have an
O'scope?

thanks so much

You're most welcome.

b.w.

(one more thing, these redi-line things have gone through a series of
owners/manufacturers. i think the current owner is the third owner. i'm
wondering if the patent changes names when the company is sold. doubt it
huh? i know these things used to be manufactured by honeywell, when i put
"honeywell" in the search field at google i got THOUSANDS of hits.)

The patent database is NOT updated with change of company name. Have you
looked the device over carefully. Usually the patent is printed on the
nameplate or molded in a cast part or otherwise announced.

I suggest going back to google patent and using the advanced search facility,
doing the following things:

1. Narrow the date span to about when the thing was put on the market, plus or
minus a few years.
2. search the body using "find all the words" for unique terms used in the
manual. things like "autostart" and motor converter and so on. If you can
figure out who the original company was (this current one might tell you
that.) then you can narrow the patent even more. Figuring the classification
code for the thing and narrowing the search to just that category will help
too.

You can also limit the patent numbers to those below about 2 million. The
system didn't really go out of control until then. They didn't start really
rubber-stamping patent application until the 4 million range.

tell you what. Make up that list of unique terms and either post or email me.
I'm fairly experienced at patent searching. I'll give it a go too.
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Save the whales, collect the whole set!