Terminating stranded wires

[EEng]

Isn't that for solid wire as opposed to stranded?
Both.

 

[EEng]

EEng
Are you saying that the screws that are threaded into the brass or
copper plate that are connected to the contact blades and are located on
the side of the devices is not a terminal?

They are terminals because the underside of the screw head is either
scored or ridged to provide a friction grip ala wire clamp.


Or are you instead talking

about the screws used to mount the device?

The OP was asking about simply wrapping a wire around any old device
screw, that's what started all this.

I have had one inspector try
to order the use of crimp connectors for connecting stranded wire but
the board of permit appeals ruled against him on the advice of UL labs.
By the way I have done DOD work and they SOMETIMES specify the use or
crimp on connectors but specifications are not regulations or laws.

I think we're well past crimp ons now. I've been trying to explain
the difference between a plain old screw and one that is specifically
designed to accept wires.

 

[Me]

DoD on my last job required solid THHN or THWN. NO EXCEPTIONS! The specs for the new
job starting in March are the same.

Yes the appeals board ruled in your favor. What do you think the inspector will try to
do on your next inspection?

Now for screw terminals. If the rest of you do not know what a "screw terminal" is or
looks like then I suggest you find another field of work. Plumbing might be more up
your alley. You need to know only two things: Turds cannot flow up hill and payday is
Friday.

Fine, believe what you want. If you can't distinguish between a
proper terminal and a device screw then more's the pity, and just
because it is common practice to save money and time by using a
standard screw AS a terminal when it is clearly not, neither by design
or by code, doesn't make it right. Between the political BS and
bottom line dollar, more is done incorrectly on purpose, with
authorization than is done by the book. Clearly, those who believe
that a device screw is a terminal, have never worked on anything DOD.

End of topic out of sheer frustration with those who demand the right
to do it wrong.

EEng
Are you saying that the screws that are threaded into the brass or
copper plate that are connected to the contact blades and are located on
the side of the devices is not a terminal? Or are you instead talking
about the screws used to mount the device? I have had one inspector try
to order the use of crimp connectors for connecting stranded wire but
the board of permit appeals ruled against him on the advice of UL labs.
By the way I have done DOD work and they SOMETIMES specify the use or
crimp on connectors but specifications are not regulations or laws.

 

[Ross Mac]

Thanks EEng!

 

[[email protected]]

Sheesh I've never seen anyone fight so hard to be wrong. A screw
actuated terminal is one in which the screw is used to hold the wire
in place against a constraint that prevents slippage such as a clamp,
an upturned tab, etc. A mere screw used in the assembly of an
enclosure is none of these and cannot be used to terminate a wire
merely by wrapping it around the threads of said screw. UL is very
specific about using the terminology TERMINAL. If it had meant screw
by itself, it would have said screw by itself.

You are the only one mentioning screws used in the
assembly of enclosures. I don't know why you are
fixated on the ridiculous concept that wires would
be connected to those screws. We are talking about
terminals here - you know, the places where wires
get attached. They are part of the terminal meant
to hold the wire in place, just as you said.

But it is not as you said in your first reply:
"It won't pass UL/CSA/VDE or any other code.
Terminate the wire by crimping/soldering it to a
terminal such as a spade or ring connector
then put that to the screw of the device."
Note that in your response, you did not specify
where the screw was. You said "the screw of
the device". Now you insist that when someone
else talks about a screw and identifies it as
part of the device terminal, it is a screw used
in the assembly of enclosures? That's bizarre.

You first call for a terminal such as a spade
or ring connector - you now admit that a stranded
conductor does not necessarily require a spade
or ring terminal. As I showed, and you confirmed,
a device such as the socket in your lamp, can
have terminals with screws, and the bare copper
stranded wire can be wrapped directly around
those screws.

There must be thousands of lamps the Ul has tested
and passed with bare copper wire wrapped around the
screws in the sockets' terminals without ring or
spade terminals, rendering the statement "It won't
pass UL/CSA/VDE or any other code" incorrect.

I apologize if I haven't made it clear in this or
previous posts.

 

[EEng]

You are the only one mentioning screws used in the
assembly of enclosures.

Man what is your major malfunction? You have repeatedly turned things
around completely several times now. The OP asked if it was okay to
simply wrap a wire arround a device screw as in one of the screws used
for assembly. I am the one that said it must be a terminal, not just
an enclosure screw. For crying out loud read the thread before you
jump to any more conclusions.

I don't know why you are

fixated on the ridiculous concept that wires would
be connected to those screws.

Have you read any of this thread at all??? I'm the one saying you CANT
do that. GEEZ

We are talking about

terminals here - you know, the places where wires
get attached. They are part of the terminal meant
to hold the wire in place, just as you said.

But it is not as you said in your first reply:
"It won't pass UL/CSA/VDE or any other code.
Terminate the wire by crimping/soldering it to a
terminal such as a spade or ring connector
then put that to the screw of the device."
Note that in your response, you did not specify
where the screw was. You said "the screw of
the device". Now you insist that when someone
else talks about a screw and identifies it as
part of the device terminal, it is a screw used
in the assembly of enclosures? That's bizarre.

No, you have it completely backwards. Are you stupid?

You first call for a terminal such as a spade
or ring connector - you now admit that a stranded
conductor does not necessarily require a spade
or ring terminal. As I showed, and you confirmed,
a device such as the socket in your lamp, can
have terminals with screws, and the bare copper
stranded wire can be wrapped directly around
those screws.

Again, you are twisting things around. I said a SCREW TERMINAL which
is different than a normal, every day device screw. Holy shit you're
dense.

There must be thousands of lamps the Ul has tested
and passed with bare copper wire wrapped around the
screws in the sockets' terminals without ring or
spade terminals, rendering the statement "It won't
pass UL/CSA/VDE or any other code" incorrect.

Have you ever heard of a wire clamp screw, wire terminating screw,
screw activated terminal? They are all terminals. The screw is part
of the terminal mechanism but it is NOT okay to simply wrap a wire
around a screw that is part ot the enclosure assembly, and THAT is
what the OP originally asked about.

I apologize if I haven't made it clear in this or
previous posts.

How can you make it clear when you don't even know who said what or
about what? I am amazed at how much you have completely twisted
things around to be bass ackwards from the context ot what was
said.....what are you, a union electrician or something? GEEZ

 

[Ross Mac]

news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [email protected]
says...

You don't use Litz wire? ;-)

Litz wire...I remember that thread....LOL....Ross

 

[DarkMatter]

Litz wire...I remember that thread....LOL....Ross

Yes, but you learned absolutely nothing from it.

 

[Kilowatt]

http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/T030.pdf
Strand wire is legal.

 

[[email protected]]

Man what is your major malfunction? You have repeatedly turned things
around completely several times now. The OP asked if it was okay to
simply wrap a wire arround a device screw as in one of the screws used
for assembly. I am the one that said it must be a terminal, not just
an enclosure screw. For crying out loud read the thread before you
jump to any more conclusions.

I don't know why you are

Have you read any of this thread at all??? I'm the one saying you CANT
do that. GEEZ

We are talking about

No, you have it completely backwards. Are you stupid?

Again, you are twisting things around. I said a SCREW TERMINAL which
is different than a normal, every day device screw. Holy shit you're
dense.

Have you ever heard of a wire clamp screw, wire terminating screw,
screw activated terminal? They are all terminals. The screw is part
of the terminal mechanism but it is NOT okay to simply wrap a wire
around a screw that is part ot the enclosure assembly, and THAT is
what the OP originally asked about.

How can you make it clear when you don't even know who said what or
about what? I am amazed at how much you have completely twisted
things around to be bass ackwards from the context ot what was
said.....what are you, a union electrician or something? GEEZ

You now insist that the OP meant, by his term
"device screws", assembly screws or enclosure
screws. In your reply to his post, you told
him to connect the wire to the "device screw".

Here's your post:
"It won't pass UL/CSA/VDE or any other code.
Terminate the wire by crimping/soldering it to a
terminal such as a spade or ring connector
then put that to the screw of the device."

If, in your opinion, that is what he meant, why
did you advise him to connect the wire to the
screw of the device?

 

[EEng]

You now insist that the OP meant, by his term
"device screws", assembly screws or enclosure
screws. In your reply to his post, you told
him to connect the wire to the "device screw".

No I did not. I said as you quote below and STILL get it wrong

Here's your post:
"It won't pass UL/CSA/VDE or any other code.
Terminate the wire by crimping/soldering it to a
terminal such as a spade or ring connector
then put that to the screw of the device."

I don't believe this. You just quoted me and yet you STILL get it
wrong. I said put the TERMINAL to the screw, NOT THE WIRE.

If, in your opinion, that is what he meant, why
did you advise him to connect the wire to the
screw of the device?

Good Lord you are DENSE. I have repeatedly stated you can NOT wrap a
wire around a device screw, that it must be terminated at a TERMINAL,
whether that be a spade or ring crimp on or a screw actuated terminal.
What is your problem? Why do you insist on twisting things around
when you requote my own quote about using a terminal? Geez I hope
you're not an electrician or engineer. I'm not replying to you again
after this. There's no hope for you. I'll bet if someone told you
the sky was blue you'd want to know why they said it was green. You'd
even requote them.... you said"the sky is blue", so why do you insist
its green? GEEZUZ FUCKING H CHRIST ON A CRACKER.

You're either the most ignorant, stupid SOB that ever came down the
pike or a TROLL. I suspect you're a troll, NOBODY is THAT stupid.

 

[Ross Mac]

That is certain.

One cannot be an expert at all things...some folks can make this admission,
others will not.....Electronics is a very large field.....

 

[EEng]

If you are acknowleging that the screws on the side of a 50 cent receptacle
where the wire is supposed to go are "screw actuated terminals" we all agree
and just in a silliy misunderstanding.

If you look at the side of that receptacle, you will see a small
upturned metal tab that when a wire is placed, restrains that wire
from side slipping out from under the screw cap when tightened. I am
not talking about the metal link between two receptacle circuits which
can be snapped off to make two seperate circuits. Also, the
underside of the screw cap is ridged for a friction grip. It is that
tab that makes the connection a terminal and not just a plain old
ordinary hardware store screw. It is the ridging for the friction
grip that makes the screw not just an ordinary hardware store screw.
In that case, it is a screw actuated terminal. If that tab were not
present and there was nothing to restrain the wire from slipping out
or failing that, if there were no ridging under the screw head then it
would not be a terminal and it would not satisfy code.

One more time with clarity....it is NOT okay per code, to simply wrap
a wire, solid or stranded, around the threads of a plain old every day
common hardware store screw. To satisfy code, there must be some form
of restraint, be it clamp, friction grip, restraint, etc.... that
makes it a terminal. IF one insists on using a standard common screw,
THEN the wire must be terminated to some form of connecting hardware
such as a spade or ring connector and THAT applied to the screw.

I don't know how to make it any simpler than that and its what I've
been saying all along.

 

[Me]

You are taking the word of a manufacturer over the NEC?!? What a dumb ass!



http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/T030.pdf
Strand wire is legal.

 

[EEng]

You are taking the word of a manufacturer over the NEC?!? What a dumb ass!

No, I'm pointing to the site of a terminal manufacturer, AND I'm not
only a design engineer, I've also been a manufacturing engineer for
24yrs and owned a manufacturing business for 15 years and am required
to comply with many codes. NEC be damned, they only write the
compliance codes, they don't make em. The real pity is the educated
idiots who can't tell the difference between a standard screw and a
screw actuated terminal. Fine by me, at least I know all my stuff
gets green tagged to code.

http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/T030.pdf
Strand wire is legal.

 

[Kilowatt]

Excuse me?

Go **** yourself.

You are taking the word of a manufacturer over the NEC?!? What a dumb ass!



http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/T030.pdf
Strand wire is legal.



them
on a

 

[DarkMatter]

Excuse me?

Go **** yourself.

You're both not all that fucking bright.

DO NOT TOP POST in Usenet!

This ain't yer outhouse express e-mail! DOH!

Bone up on Usenet posting protocols.... Doh!

 

[DarkMatter]

If we allowed the code officials to stifle innovation our homes would still be
wired in Knob and Tube.

Ouch.

I wonder how many house fires a year that would allow to occur. :-]

 

[[email protected]]

No I did not. I said as you quote below and STILL get it wrong

I don't believe this. You just quoted me and yet you STILL get it
wrong. I said put the TERMINAL to the screw, NOT THE WIRE.


Good Lord you are DENSE. I have repeatedly stated you can NOT wrap a
wire around a device screw, that it must be terminated at a TERMINAL,
whether that be a spade or ring crimp on or a screw actuated terminal.
What is your problem? Why do you insist on twisting things around
when you requote my own quote about using a terminal? Geez I hope
you're not an electrician or engineer. I'm not replying to you again
after this. There's no hope for you. I'll bet if someone told you
the sky was blue you'd want to know why they said it was green. You'd
even requote them.... you said"the sky is blue", so why do you insist
its green? GEEZUZ FUCKING H CHRIST ON A CRACKER.

You're either the most ignorant, stupid SOB that ever came down the
pike or a TROLL. I suspect you're a troll, NOBODY is THAT stupid.

You still don't get it. You told him to connect a
wire to a screw which YOU define as an assembly or
enclosure screw. Whether he puts a ring or spade
terminal on it is irrelevant. You ought to know
that you don't put a wire, with or without a spade
or ring terminal on an enclosure screw or on an
assembly screw.

Why on earth would the OP be asking about connecting
a wire to anything other than a terminal screw? You
missed the boat, and can't see it. Instead, you rely
on insults - but insults don't address the issue.
Your post to the OP creates the erroneous impression
that all stranded wires must terminate in a ring or
spade terminal. The simple example of a UL listed
lamp, where the stranded wires are not connected to a
ring or spade terminal proves that that is not always
required.

 

[EEng]

It is clear you don't know much about the NEC. The manufacturer's labelling and
testing lab listings are what guides the code, not the other way around.
If we allowed the code officials to stifle innovation our homes would still be
wired in Knob and Tube.

AAAHAHAHA now THATS funny!