[Eeyore]

At 2 seconds, people will recharge it just before they set out. At
ten minutes, they will plug the charger in when they get how. Nobody
wants to wait an extra ten minutes before they start on their hour
long commute.


The owners will get a better deal on the power if they let the power
company control the charging current. The feature will be built into
the charger and most people will use it.

That's a very sensible idea actually. The recharging rate could be dynamically
modulated to provide a full charge quite quickly whilst at the same time
minimising peak load on the grid (and obtaining optimal use of spare capacity) .
That'll keep the power generators very happy indeed.

Plus, you're presumably get a discount for plugging it in earlier rather than
later. That might provide the required incentive to do that.

I'd patent it FAST.

Graham

 

[Guy Macon]

Al Gore's individual consumption is irrelevant if he can motivate
large numbers of people to reduce theirs. He's making a significant
contribution to the effort. What's yours?

I increased the battery life of a toy from 15 hours to 25 hours.
It used 2 AAA batteries, and we sold around 3 million of them.

I also decreased the weight of every Boeing 777 aircraft by
5 ounces, thus reducing fuel consumption by a tiny amount
per mile that will be multiplied by a large number of miles
before the last one is retired from service.

And yours?

 

[Eeyore]

Al Gore's individual consumption is irrelevant if he can motivate
large numbers of people to reduce theirs. He's making a significant
contribution to the effort. What's yours?

Aaaarrrgghh !

It turns out that CO2 isn't a problem. Expect the IPCC's extravagant and
extraordinary lies to be revealed in ever more gory detail over the next year or
two.

Al Gore is merely making a significant contribution to lining his own pocket. He
runs a company providing carbon offsets/credits. He profits from 'green gesturing'.

But these too are just band-aid solutions

No 'solution' is needed. Although reducing use of oil to conserve supplies for
reasons of long-term energy security might be a smart move.

Graham

 

[Richard Henry]

Oil's not running out.

Where do you get your data?

 

[Eeyore]

Where do you get your data?

It's all over the place. Whay may be running out is CHEAP oil. Oil shales are
already being touted as being close to being economically viable.

Graham

 

[Nobody]

"Nobody"


** Over the range from 0 - 60 mph - according to the makers.

Achievable in a bit over 4 seconds.

Ah; I should have removed the "Better acceleration than a Porsche" bit.
What I meant was:

But at what speed?

IOW, at what speed can you get 250 miles on one charge? Energy per unit
distance increases with drag and thus with speed.

** The force is less than 1G for any normal car - since tyre to road
friction is less than the weight of the car.

0 - 60 mph in 4.3 seconds requires a continuous force of just on 0.64G -
plus the effect of increasing air drag at higher speeds.

Here, I'm talking primarily about force due to drag, which is proportional
to the square of the speed. E.g. drag at 70mph is roughly 36% higher than
at 60mph, and almost twice that at 50mph. Energy per unit distance
increases likewise.

By which, I meant that it dominates over constant frictional forces
(rolling resistance).

Under heavy acceleration at low speed (i.e. 0-60 or standing 1/4 mile),
the force required to accelerate will be the main factor, but that's
recoverable with regenerative braking, while energy used to overcome drag
and friction is lost for good.

** Air resistance dominates the terminal speed ( said to be 130 mph for
the Roadster)

Wow. The force required to overcome drag at 130mph is ~4.7 times that at
60mph. IOW, if the "250 miles on one charge" figure was for 60mph, you
wouldn't get much over 50 miles at 130mph.

 

[Nobody]

That's a hybrid. The *series* hybrid doesn't attempt to do any fancy mechanical
combining of traction power from an ICE with the electric motor and simply uses
the ICE to recharge the battery, thus making it much simpler than a parallel
hybrid.

Do such things exist in production?

The main disadvantage with that is that all of the power has to come
through the motors, even at maximum speed. With a parallel setup, you get
the sum of the two rather than just the maximum. The advantage is that you
don't have the layout constraints (transmission tunnel etc) or complexity
of a mechanical drivetrain.

In a series hybrid, the ICE can always run at optimum efficiency (rpm), which it
doesn't in today's ordinary cars.

Not having to be able to vary the speed means that you could use a
turbine engine; unfortunately, the high cost of those seems to be largely
inherent (i.e. they still wouldn't be cheap if Ford/GM were making a
million units a year).

Also, overall system efficiency is improved by
the use of regenerative braking. Plus, of course, with a series hybrid, you
don't need to use the ICE at all for short journeys. It seems to have all the
right cards in its hand.

OTOH, are they even necessasry ?

What? An ICE generator? Until there's either a quantum leap in battery
technology or we get some alternative means of turning fuel into energy,
e.g. fuel cells, they're about the only way that you're likely to get
decent range (the cited 250 miles would need to get you "there" and back
again unless you have some way to recharge while you're there).

First, there's the energy density: 1 litre of petrol/diesel has a lot more
energy than you can store in 1000 cm^3 of battery. Second, there's the
infrastructure. A fuel tank only needs enough capacity to get you from one
petrol station to the next. Until there's similar infrastructure for
electric vehicles, being able to "recharge" by refuelling a generator is
likely to make a significant difference to viability for long distance
journeys.

OTOH, I suspect that there are a lot of people for whom it would suffice
to own an all-electric car (even with fairly limited range) and hire a
"real" car as and when they need it. Unfortunately, rationality and cars
don't necessarily go together; a lot of people would automatically rule
out a car with a 100-mile range even if it was only inadequate once or
twice a year.

 

[Nobody]

So what is the impact of recycling huge batteries every say 3-5 years ?

Probably not a great deal.

The energy consumption is likely to be miniscule compared to what a
vehicle uses in 3-5 years.

As for pollution: the usual metals (lead, nickel, cadmium, lithium) are
valuable enough that you are going to try to recover as much as possible
simply on economic grounds (and these aren't particularly hard to recover).

I don't know what else might be an issue, but it's usually the heavy
metals which are cited in anti-EV FUD. Organic pollutants are a
total non-issue if you're comparing against ICEs running on hydrocarbons.

 

[Eeyore]

Probably not a great deal.

Probably ?

Today's cars have no requirement whatever for any significant partial in-service
recycling at all.

Just a thought.

Graham

 

[Phil Allison]

"Nobody"

Ah; I should have removed the "Better acceleration than a Porsche" bit.
What I meant was:

** Sorry - not interested in your pathetic, asinine retraction.

Here, I'm talking primarily about force due to drag,

** Bollocks - you are a ASD fucked fucking liar.

By which, I meant that it dominates over constant frictional forces
(rolling resistance).

** Sorry - not interested in your pathetic, asinine retraction.

Wow.

** Sorry - not interested in your pathetic, asinine retraction.

Go get fucked - you ASD fucked MORON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






........ Phil

 

[MooseFET]

Probably not a great deal.

The energy consumption is likely to be miniscule compared to what a
vehicle uses in 3-5 years.

As for pollution: the usual metals (lead, nickel, cadmium, lithium) are
valuable enough that you are going to try to recover as much as possible
simply on economic grounds (and these aren't particularly hard to recover).

Here's basically how car batteries get recycled:

(1) Ship them to a 3rd world country

(2) Pour the acid out on the ground

(3) Make a big pile of them, pour gas on them and light it to burn off
the plastic.

(4) Have the women and children ccrape up want doesn't burn and put it
in a big pot.

(5) Chop down some rain forest trees to build a fire under the pot.

(6) Have the women and children scrape the junkc that rises to the
surface off.

(7) Pour into molds

(8) Ship recycled lead to 1st world countries.

 

[Eeyore]

Here's basically how car batteries get recycled:

(1) Ship them to a 3rd world country

(2) Pour the acid out on the ground

(3) Make a big pile of them, pour gas on them and light it to burn off
the plastic.

(4) Have the women and children ccrape up want doesn't burn and put it
in a big pot.

(5) Chop down some rain forest trees to build a fire under the pot.

(6) Have the women and children scrape the junkc that rises to the
surface off.

(7) Pour into molds

(8) Ship recycled lead to 1st world countries.

And all because of RoHS no doubt. Certainly Europeans won't touch the stuff any
more.

Graham

 

[J.A. Legris]

If you mean Playstations or whatever that teach their kids to become detached
from reality and view excessive violence as normal, yes I'd agree.


It's doubly sad if that's what you think. What I've learnt through travelling is
somewhat intangible perhaps but probably most usefully I've learnt something of
the culture of the places I've visited. No Playstation can do that either. And
no way will the net tell you anything about that.

And mere pictures cannot even remotely substitute for being there. Pictures
can't ever do justice to Hong Kong harbour at night taking in the sea air.


Well, I still retain plenty of my visit to Norway in 1976 for sure.


No you absolutely couldn't. Nothing for example could substitute for the hour
long chat we had in a souk in Sousse (Tunisia) with a local Muslim market trader
for example. It did require an ability to understand and use French of course.

Mind you, I do probably 'engage' rather more with the locals than it seems from
what I'vee heard, the typical US tourist does.


The greens have brainwashed you well.

Seriously, I hardly know the vast variety of immigrants living nearby.
I suspect the same is true of you. Why should either of us consume and
pollute just to visit their home countries until we've at least tried
to know the local ones? Do you find yourself oohing and ahhing at
local architecture or scenic vistas? What does it matter if you've
seen them before? They're still just as impressive aren't they? If you
really care about the countries you visit, just send the money and
stay home. When the big crunch arrives (can you really risk assuming
otherwise?), I won't feel so much brainwashed as preadapted.

 

[Gary Tait]

What's the big deal about recycling battteries ?

The cost to recover the materials inside is worth more than the materials
on the open market, at least in a enviromentally friendly way.

 

[Eeyore]

Seriously, I hardly know the vast variety of immigrants living nearby.
I suspect the same is true of you.

What's that got to do with anything ?

Why should either of us consume and
pollute just to visit their home countries until we've at least tried
to know the local ones? Do you find yourself oohing and ahhing at
local architecture or scenic vistas? What does it matter if you've
seen them before? They're still just as impressive aren't they? If you
really care about the countries you visit, just send the money and
stay home. When the big crunch arrives (can you really risk assuming
otherwise?), I won't feel so much brainwashed as preadapted.

You've not so much 'lost the plot' as never got it.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Eeyore wrote


The cost to recover the materials inside is worth more than the materials
on the open market, at least in a enviromentally friendly way.

Is it ? Where's the data that supports your claim ?

Graham

 

[[email protected]]

Make it a virus that only infects leftist weenies and those living on
the government teat... THEN you have the answer ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

That would take out the oil companies, the auto companies, the drug
companies, most agri-business, and pretty much anybody who drives a
car. It's going to be pretty when it's just the other bicycle radicals
and me.

 

[MooseFET]

And all because of RoHS no doubt. Certainly Europeans won't touch the stuff any
more.

No, it long predates RoHS. It is the result of "market forces". The
only thing in the battery worth having is the lead. The rest is a
disposal issue. The ability to externalize the disposal cost is what
drove the recyclers overseas.

 

[J.A. Legris]

What's that got to do with anything ?


You've not so much 'lost the plot' as never got it.

Graham

Short little attention span? Let me summarize it for you:

- I said fuel consumption will never decrease much unless cars are
much lighter, but even radically lighter vehicles are no long-term
solution on this overpopulated planet
- I also said Al Gore's contribution to the solution is to motivate
the masses. Mine is to live a low-impact lifestyle and have no
offspring.
- You said that's "sad"
- I said it's sadder that people don't seem to care about the long-
term effects of overconsumption, such as taking regular vactions, when
they could just read up on it or visit local "foreigners"
- You said there's no substitute for a real vacation, which presumably
includes visiting real foreigners
- I mentioned again the possibility of visiting local "foreigners"
after you ignored it
- You failed to see the connection
- There's your problem

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:30:01 -0700, "J.A. Legris"

[snip]

- I said fuel consumption will never decrease much unless cars are
much lighter, but even radically lighter vehicles are no long-term
solution on this overpopulated planet

Amen! I keep telling people that, and they look at me like I'm some
kind of idiot.

- I also said Al Gore's contribution to the solution is to motivate
the masses.

To CON the masses, and he's making a bundle doing it.

Mine is to live a low-impact lifestyle and have no
offspring.
- You said that's "sad"
- I said it's sadder that people don't seem to care about the long-
term effects of overconsumption, such as taking regular vactions, when
they could just read up on it or visit local "foreigners"
- You said there's no substitute for a real vacation, which presumably
includes visiting real foreigners
- I mentioned again the possibility of visiting local "foreigners"
after you ignored it
- You failed to see the connection
- There's your problem

My own state keeps me "vacationing" forever ;-)

...Jim Thompson