The Electric Car

M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
How does 200 empg at zero NOx create more CO2 than consuming
atmosphere at 20 empg, not to mention the N2-->NOx factor?

First, you haven't proven the claim of 200MPG. It is an extremely
unlikely number given the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and the
wind resistance of the average car. You can't get more energy out of
the fuel than there is in it.

Second, you haven't counted the energy to make the H2O2. This process
is very lossy. The energy that went into making it is not recovered
in the car.

3rd you haven't accounted for the extra weight. More weight takes
more fuel to move. Using air, you don't need to carry all the extra
weight.
No, you are the one who doesn't get it. You are suggesting a solution
that makes matters worse. You seem unwilling to look at the facts and
consider the real science.
[.. nonsense deleted ..]

We don't buy your LLPOF worth of big-government and big-energy
arguments.

Do you have a tapeworm or multiple personalities? If not, who is we.

Lots of people don't accept science. Why don't you just use magic
unicorns to power the car. If you use magic unicorns you can go
faster than the speed of light and end up with more fuel than you
started.


[....]
But you folks continually distort and/or lie as a regular basis of
your existing. It's what government and big-energy have always done
best.

You mean we disagree with you. This is a sci.XXX news group. That
should be a hint about what you should add to your arguments. A
little math and a little physics and some chem. is needed. Go try to
put real numbers on your claims. I predict that you won't find the
rose colored picture you currently have once you put pencil to paper.
There's no valid argument. The ICE of whatever's using of
H2+atmosphere that's of mostly N2 creates a great deal of NOx,

That statement is "thunderingly wrong". You really need to go try to
find some numbers. An ICE engine doesn't need to make NOx when
breathing air. This has long been proven.

and if
there's most anything of fossil or synfuel there's loads of CO2 to
boot.

You were burning carbons in your suggested method too. Your method
burns more than the existing system so you are encouraging added
polution.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dan said:
So, we assume a new paradigm of EVs many decades down the road and
assume all energy will still come from today's sources.

You can if you want to !

If the point is to mitigate the impact of peak oil, what is your the point?

Peak Oil is YOUR fixation. THere's plenty more of it you know.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dirk said:
Depends.
My overall use is probably around 5kWhr all sources.

Given the recent weather here you must have an extraordinarily well
insulated home or a very small one.

I work from home as well as live there and I've been using ~ 50kWh daily.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eric said:
No way a house uses only 8 kWh unless water, heat, and stove are all gas.

There are no practical batteries for highway use. Just put in a 1L diesel.

Probably only need a 500cc diesel if it's series hybrid. That would easily provide the average power
required (about 10-15 kW) and then some so it would only need to run part time.

SUVs and pickups for personal use should be banned anyway.

Whilst I sympathise slightly with your sentiments I am totally against compulsion. Let the greens get
their way over that and next thing you know your home heating will be rationed too, you'll HAVE to wear
thick clothing (an inspector will come round to check) and your right to travel will be restricted to
public transport only.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
If the issue is carbon or oil depletion, then you should also look at
what fraction of the power comes from non-fossil-fuel sources. In
France, this percentage is quite high.

As for cabin heating--do the batteries or motor of an EV get hot?

Not in any useful way. If they did that it would be reflected in their
efficiency wouldn't it ?

Is there any waste heat to be scavanged at all?
No.

If not, that is sort of worth boasting about in its own right.

There isn't any so it isn't. The whole point of an EV is that it *doesn't*
produce much waste heat. Instead, the power plant does.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eric said:
It's not communism you stupid ****, it's responsible government.

Yup, demolish everything older than 60 years.

Oh goody. We just get to keep the really ugly looking buildings.

You DO realise just how many GDPs it would take to replace them do you ? It's
probably the most IDIOTIC thing I've seen anyone say aside from BradGuth, habshi,
Radium or youchews.

Graham
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET said:
How does 200 empg at zero NOx create more CO2 than consuming
atmosphere at 20 empg, not to mention the N2-->NOx factor?


First, you haven't proven the claim of 200MPG. It is an extremely
unlikely number given the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and the
wind resistance of the average car. You can't get more energy out of
the fuel than there is in it.

Second, you haven't counted the energy to make the H2O2. This process
is very lossy. The energy that went into making it is not recovered
in the car.

3rd you haven't accounted for the extra weight. More weight takes
more fuel to move. Using air, you don't need to carry all the extra
weight.

No, you are the one who doesn't get it. You are suggesting a solution
that makes matters worse. You seem unwilling to look at the facts and
consider the real science.
[.. nonsense deleted ..]

We don't buy your LLPOF worth of big-government and big-energy
arguments.


Do you have a tapeworm or multiple personalities? If not, who is we.

Lots of people don't accept science. Why don't you just use magic
unicorns to power the car. If you use magic unicorns you can go
faster than the speed of light and end up with more fuel than you
started.


[....]

But you folks continually distort and/or lie as a regular basis of
your existing. It's what government and big-energy have always done
best.


You mean we disagree with you. This is a sci.XXX news group. That
should be a hint about what you should add to your arguments. A
little math and a little physics and some chem. is needed. Go try to
put real numbers on your claims. I predict that you won't find the
rose colored picture you currently have once you put pencil to paper.

There's no valid argument. The ICE of whatever's using of
H2+atmosphere that's of mostly N2 creates a great deal of NOx,


That statement is "thunderingly wrong". You really need to go try to
find some numbers. An ICE engine doesn't need to make NOx when
breathing air. This has long been proven.


and if
there's most anything of fossil or synfuel there's loads of CO2 to
boot.


You were burning carbons in your suggested method too. Your method
burns more than the existing system so you are encouraging added
polution.
This last comment seems to be totally ignored by those that support a
"hydrogen economy" and other not-thought-thru Ponzi schemes.
Iffen youse wunts ter re-duce poe-lution, ya gots to be X-rated with
answers from some nasty questions:
1) Where does the energy come from?
2) How is it stored (what form)?
3) How many conversions are used (from one form to another, etc) to get
the desired result (presumably motive power for some kind of vehicle0?
4) From above, how much LOSS is there?
5) Are there more efficent ways?
There are probably more nasty questions, but the above should keep
some idiots busy...
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
It is probably not that far off for modern UK design houses with full
cavity wall and loft insulation kept at 20C internal.
Given the recent weather here you must have an extraordinarily well
insulated home or a very small one.

I agree. Although his annual average may consist of something like
9kWhr now and 1kWhr in mid summer. UK domestic property seldom has
airconditioning - no need for it. My house is more than a century old
and has relatively poor insulation but very thick solid walls. Very
slow to heat up and equally slow to cool down. A quick back of the
envelope yields about 15kWhr average. Annually 3000L kerosene, 500kg
coal/logs and 2kWhr/day electricity. Winter heating fuel usage is
almost 10x that in summer in the cold snaps.

I am re-insulating the loft with thick layer hitech glass fibre in
space blanket (which is much easier to work with).
I work from home as well as live there and I've been using ~ 50kWh daily.

That seems rather high. You should look at insulating it much better.
I thought you designed electronics, not manufactured ceramics in a
kiln.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Martin said:
It is probably not that far off for modern UK design houses with full
cavity wall and loft insulation kept at 20C internal.

I find that very unlikely. The average central heating boiler is rated at 23kW
(80,000 BTU/hr). 8kWh represents merely about 20 minutes use at full blast !

About the smallest size you can get is a nominal 50,000 BTU/hr (14.6 kW). This
one modulates between 30 and 49,800 BTU/hr (8.8 kW - 14.6 kW)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BOILER-IDEAL-...ryZ42234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


I agree. Although his annual average may consist of something like
9kWhr now and 1kWhr in mid summer. UK domestic property seldom has
airconditioning - no need for it. My house is more than a century old
and has relatively poor insulation but very thick solid walls. Very
slow to heat up and equally slow to cool down. A quick back of the
envelope yields about 15kWhr average. Annually 3000L kerosene, 500kg
coal/logs and 2kWhr/day electricity. Winter heating fuel usage is
almost 10x that in summer in the cold snaps.

I am re-insulating the loft with thick layer hitech glass fibre in
space blanket (which is much easier to work with).


That seems rather high. You should look at insulating it much better.

Yes it does need some more. Being Victorian era it doesn't have cavity walls of
course.

I thought you designed electronics, not manufactured ceramics in a
kiln.

Bearing in mind I'm using the place 24/7 - it's only ~ an average use of 2kW. It
represents a cost using gas of £60 pcm which is less than most homes AIUI. But
then I'm not heating every room.

And we have had sub-zero temps recently. You know, Global Warming and all that.
:~)

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dirk said:
My overall use is probably around 5kWhr all sources.

I have one PC that's powered up 24/7. That alone probably takes getting on
for that much even though the screen powers down when not in use.

Graham
 
E

Erdemal

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eric said:
No way a house uses only 8 kWh unless water, heat, and stove are all gas.

There are no practical batteries for highway use. Just put in a 1L diesel.
SUVs and pickups for personal use should be banned anyway.

Should boats, large homes, pools, jets, ... be banned first or after SUV ?

Usually people want to ban what they have not !

Erdy
 
B

BradGuth

Jan 1, 1970
0
First, you haven't proven the claim of 200MPG. It is an extremely
unlikely number given the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and the
wind resistance of the average car. You can't get more energy out of
the fuel than there is in it.
Second, you haven't counted the energy to make the H2O2. This process
is very lossy. The energy that went into making it is not recovered
in the car.
3rd you haven't accounted for the extra weight. More weight takes
more fuel to move. Using air, you don't need to carry all the extra
weight.
No, you are the one who doesn't get it. You are suggesting a solution
that makes matters worse. You seem unwilling to look at the facts and
consider the real science.
[.. nonsense deleted ..]
We don't buy your LLPOF worth of big-government and big-energy
arguments.
Do you have a tapeworm or multiple personalities? If not, who is we.
Lots of people don't accept science. Why don't you just use magic
unicorns to power the car. If you use magic unicorns you can go
faster than the speed of light and end up with more fuel than you
started.
But you folks continually distort and/or lie as a regular basis of
your existing. It's what government and big-energy have always done
best.
You mean we disagree with you. This is a sci.XXX news group. That
should be a hint about what you should add to your arguments. A
little math and a little physics and some chem. is needed. Go try to
put real numbers on your claims. I predict that you won't find the
rose colored picture you currently have once you put pencil to paper.
That statement is "thunderingly wrong". You really need to go try to
find some numbers. An ICE engine doesn't need to make NOx when
breathing air. This has long been proven.
You were burning carbons in your suggested method too. Your method
burns more than the existing system so you are encouraging added
polution.

This last comment seems to be totally ignored by those that support a
"hydrogen economy" and other not-thought-thru Ponzi schemes.
Iffen youse wunts ter re-duce poe-lution, ya gots to be X-rated with
answers from some nasty questions:
1) Where does the energy come from?
2) How is it stored (what form)?
3) How many conversions are used (from one form to another, etc) to get
the desired result (presumably motive power for some kind of vehicle0?
4) From above, how much LOSS is there?
5) Are there more efficent ways?
There are probably more nasty questions, but the above should keep
some idiots busy...

A "hydrogen economy" which includes the likes of h2o2 is not a source
of pollution, nor is it using up more of our fossil and yellowcake
reserves. The birth to grave analogy of what solar PV, solar
stirling, wind, geothermal and tidal energy that's allowed to produce
and sustain such a "hydrogen economy" are not the culprits of what's
going to do us in.

What's doing us in as we type into this mostly big-government and big-
energy saturated anti-think-tank of a Usenet from fossil and
yellowcake hell on our CO2 and NOx polluted Earth, as we continually
push those do-not-push Muslim buttons and those buttons of anyone else
getting in our way, is exactly what has got us headed towards WWIII,
and having the rest of this world in cringe mode over whatever stupid
things we might do next.

Even with nuclear energy, most every other nation using yellowcake is
doing it better and thereby obtaining more reliable and the most
affordable energy with the least amount of birth-to-grave
environmental impact. Instead the US has become dependent on
commercial and residential natural gas, as well as in places paying
the most for its electrons that do not even have the best of a power
grid for efficiently sharing such clean electrons. Go figure, what is
it if anything that are we not doing wrong?

Running spendy synfuel or fossil fuel-rich in order to minimize NOx is
not an option.
- Brad Guth
 
B

BradGuth

Jan 1, 1970
0
There's no point arguing science with him. He pulls all his numbers out of his
backside and he'll just call you an Exxon shill or Yid for your trouble. He's
simply best ignored. There's not an ounce of intelligence in him.

Graham

That's true enough to the usual diehard naysay likes of yourself
that's in such total mainstream butt-sucking denial of being in
denial, whereas with the use of h2o2 plus a little of whatever fossil
or synfuel is likely worthy of providing something better than 200
empg on behalf of the hybrid (4 passenger) car that's using up such
spendy fossil or whatever synfuel. After all, we are strictly talking
about getting the best possible and least polluting empg usage of such
fossil and/or synfuels, and not about the amounts of h2o2 that's
getting consumed, and we are not talking about our being stuck with
using any conventional 4 cycle ICE

The battery or energy fuel cell part that is running clean on h2o2 and
aluminum is just about as clean and renewable of stored energy as
you're going to get, especially since so much of those items are
getting created and/or replaced by way of clean renewable energy in
the first place.

According to the regular laws of physics, the best available scoience
and the likes of Warren Buffett, there is no such shortage of
renewable energy unless you are simply too freaking dumb and dumber
than a lamp post.
- Brad Guth
 
B

BradGuth

Jan 1, 1970
0
How does 200 empg at zero NOx create more CO2 than consuming
atmosphere at 20 empg, not to mention the N2-->NOx factor?

First, you haven't proven the claim of 200MPG. It is an extremely
unlikely number given the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and the
wind resistance of the average car. You can't get more energy out of
the fuel than there is in it.

Second, you haven't counted the energy to make the H2O2. This process
is very lossy. The energy that went into making it is not recovered
in the car.

3rd you haven't accounted for the extra weight. More weight takes
more fuel to move. Using air, you don't need to carry all the extra
weight.
No, you are the one who doesn't get it. You are suggesting a solution
that makes matters worse. You seem unwilling to look at the facts and
consider the real science.
[.. nonsense deleted ..]
We don't buy your LLPOF worth of big-government and big-energy
arguments.

Do you have a tapeworm or multiple personalities? If not, who is we.

Lots of people don't accept science. Why don't you just use magic
unicorns to power the car. If you use magic unicorns you can go
faster than the speed of light and end up with more fuel than you
started.

[....]
But you folks continually distort and/or lie as a regular basis of
your existing. It's what government and big-energy have always done
best.

You mean we disagree with you. This is a sci.XXX news group. That
should be a hint about what you should add to your arguments. A
little math and a little physics and some chem. is needed. Go try to
put real numbers on your claims. I predict that you won't find the
rose colored picture you currently have once you put pencil to paper.
There's no valid argument. The ICE of whatever's using of
H2+atmosphere that's of mostly N2 creates a great deal of NOx,

That statement is "thunderingly wrong". You really need to go try to
find some numbers. An ICE engine doesn't need to make NOx when
breathing air. This has long been proven.
and if
there's most anything of fossil or synfuel there's loads of CO2 to
boot.

You were burning carbons in your suggested method too. Your method
burns more than the existing system so you are encouraging added
polution.

Your continual naysayism and exclusion of evidence is noted. Let us
know whenever you manage to get a bright idea that isn't the least bit
polluting or worth going to war over, because the one and only option
you folks bring to the table includes WWIII, if not worse.
- Brad Guth
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
It's pretty simple really. Capitalism is good at doing stuff like that. Even
the Russians are in on the act now. They've stated they intend to explore the
Arctic for oil for example and aren't held back by domestic 'green' pressures.
Expect them to be an increasingly major player in the world energy market.

http://www.peakoil.net/IWOOD2002/abstractRL.html

100 billion barrels. At the current production rates, which BTW have
gone flat, their fields will likely go into steep decline post peak.
That assumes they can keep production up for another decade.

At that, the O & G Journal 1/1/5 figured 60 billion.

This in the context of what you snipped, what happens over the next few
decades?

Even the EIA with their heads up their ass figures we peak in two decades.

http://lakeweb.com/money/OPEC_hist.gif

This energy era is a flash in the pan and as it fades there will be 10
billion hungry folks on the planet........

http://lakeweb.com/money/energy_history.gif
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
My numbers are corrrect. Even nuclear generation is similarly inefficient to coal etc.

If you want to discuss emissions or where the fuel cones from that's fine (and an entirely
different subject) but the efficiency numbers aren't going to change.

How do you know this? We already have operational natural gas at 60%. It
is called combined cycle if you want to research it.
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Where's the shortage ? There was no rationing when I filled up today.

Is that the beer talking? It was a pretty stupid comment.
 
A

Angelo Campanella

Jan 1, 1970
0
BradGuth said:
If you so happen to have an insufficient supply or even no such
c12h26, and/or it's costing you $10+/gallon because of the $1000/
barrel of crude or of the spendy birth to grave worth of whatever
synfuel process, then what?

It comes down to choosing the method of converting an energy supply into
mobile propulsion.

One can:

1- suck it out of the ground, put it in a tank and burn it for propulsion.

2- Dig it out 0f the ground, burn it to make electricity that is used to
charge a battery that later propels a vehicle.

3- Use a tiny engine via #1- to slowly charge a battery for later quick
vehicle propulsion.

4- Charge the vehicle battery from the sun to later propel the vehicle, etc.

Which is best depends on solid or liquid fuel availability, or the state
of the art of battery fabrication, or the frequency of vehicle driving
needed for the individual.

Nature gave us two legs and beasts of burden.

They will always be with us.

I'm less sure which 1- 2- 3- 4- alternatives will be best at any given
time....

"your mileage will vary"

Angelo Camapnella
 
B

BradGuth

Jan 1, 1970
0
BradGuthwrote:

It comes down to choosing the method of converting an energy supply into
mobile propulsion.

One can:

1- suck it out of the ground, put it in a tank and burn it for propulsion.

2- Dig it out 0f the ground, burn it to make electricity that is used to
charge a battery that later propels a vehicle.

3- Use a tiny engine via #1- to slowly charge a battery for later quick
vehicle propulsion.

4- Charge the vehicle battery from the sun to later propel the vehicle, etc.

Which is best depends on solid or liquid fuel availability, or the state
of the art of battery fabrication, or the frequency of vehicle driving
needed for the individual.

Nature gave us two legs and beasts of burden.

They will always be with us.

I'm less sure which 1- 2- 3- 4- alternatives will be best at any given
time....

"your mileage will vary"

Angelo Camapnella

That's all very true, except that laws of physics and the best
available science has already proven and in many instances having
demonstrated that we do not have to survive by way of the collateral
damage as well as the human blood and guts worth of fossil and
yellowcake energy alone, especially at the ongoing demise of our frail
environment and even more so frail DNA that simply can't go on forever
as though there was never a problem, and even somehow at 1e10 souls
living up to the American quality or standard of life is going to
become doable as is.

It seems by way of the orchestrated damage control that's clearly
working on behalf of whatever fossil and yellowcake fuel doesn't have
any such birth-to-grave considerations, of no lives being damaged or
much less taken, and oddly none of it pollutes our environment
according to those in charge of our private parts and most of our hard
earned loot. It seems according to the mainstream status quo of big-
government and of their big-energy puppeteers that are more semitic
than not, that past, current and future wars have never been about
energy or of the products and services accommodated by such, that
which mostly benefits their own rich and powerful kind that would
supposedly never dream of hurting a Muslim fly that so happens to be
resting upon his/her own oily rock.

I guess upon that fantasy flat Earth of theirs that's somehow getting
itself summarily polluted and global warmed to death all by itself
(not even the least bit affected by our moon), is also where that Old
Testament god of their pretend atheism is also telling us that within
the entire universe we're it, or perhaps all she wrote(sort of speak),
with everything else being of mere redshift eye-candy that's entirely
moving away from us faster than any form of technology could possibly
keep up with, much less overtake. In other words, faith-based pretend
atheism, nothing is ever in blueshift or is there any viable
technology of ever accomplishing such blueshift as according to their
all-knowing expertise, that's slso rather nicely backed up by their
pretend atheism's Old Testament. How odd, that our only options are
terrestrial and as such have to include those perpetrated cold and hot
world wars.

I guess that kind of global domination and/or brown-nosed minion
mindset must be why these extremely smart insiders of Usenet have to
make such efforts at continually traumatizing and/or trashing my poor
old PC.

BTW, as you've indicated, there are more of those ways for obtaining,
storing and using energy to behold than suggested your "1- 2- 3- 4-
alternatives", whereas some of that energy can be accomplished off-
grid or even home brewed if need be.
- Brad Guth
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dan said:
http://www.peakoil.net/IWOOD2002/abstractRL.html

100 billion barrels. At the current production rates, which BTW have
gone flat, their fields will likely go into steep decline post peak.
That assumes they can keep production up for another decade.

At that, the O & G Journal 1/1/5 figured 60 billion.

This in the context of what you snipped, what happens over the next few
decades?

We will learn to use oil more effectively. Except in the USA where the desire to own
7 litre V8s will continue no doubt.

Oh , but didn't your government just pass a new vehicle fuel efficiency requirement
?

Graham
 
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