Using mosfet to switch 12V to a load with a hard ground.

[Gusisin]

I currently have the existing circuit to control my car horn via a relay. I am a beginner but trying to figure out how I can replace the relay with a mosfet. I got it working to control the horm via 3.3v to an n channel mosfet to sound the horn by using a mosfet to switch a relay to connect 12V direct to pin 2 of the horn. To get rid of the relay and use onlt a high current mosfet I am not sure how to get around the ground fitted at the horn. SHould I use a p-type instead and control the 12v rather than use an n-type to controll access to ground? If so I am a bit lost at that point.

 

[danadak]

If you are stuck with one side horn grounded then you do a high side switch.

https://www.vishay.com/docs/70611/70611.pdf

Learn And Build A High Side Switch

As electronics engineer I have a mental collection of circuits that I’ve gathered over the years, much like a mechanic collects specialized tools as they work. All engineers do this and the tools i…

hackaday.com

P-Channel MOSFET Tutorial with only Positive Voltages

Quick explanation on using only positive voltages in this p-channel MOSFET tutorial

www.baldengineer.com

Regards, Dana.

 

[crutschow]

Here's a high-side P-MOSFET switch to power the grounded horn:
It powers the horn with a 3V to 12V input.
The P-MOSFET can be any with at least a 15A, 30V rating.

 

[Gusisin]

Guys thank you so much I have som p-mosis arriving tomorrow I will try it out and get back with my results. Thanks so much for the great help.

 

[Bluejets]

I doubt your expected circuit is correct.
Auto wiring to the horn (and other equipment) is normally earth return.
i.e. power is applied to the horn (or other equipment) and the ground is taken to the slipring on the steering wheel.
Those that use a relay would be similar.

 

[Gusisin]

I doubt your expected circuit is correct.
Auto wiring to the horn (and other equipment) is normally earth return.
i.e. power is applied to the horn (or other equipment) and the ground is taken to the slipring on the steering wheel.
Those that use a relay would be similar.

This is the actual circuit for the horn, I want to inject 12V where indicated with a shared ground between micro controller and the car. I did consider an optocoupler to do the switching but the horn os on a 40A fuse so decided that because of the current and the shared earth not to try this. I know that optoisolators are to isolate one circuit from another but would it be simpiler to use one here and use one component (a 3.3v switched opto isolator) and just share ground between circuits, if I can find one with enough load capacity?

 

[danadak]

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Regards, Dana.

 

[Gusisin]

SSR ?

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Regards, Dana.

Great point that would work as would a standard relay but I am sure I can do this in discrete components as a way to also teach myself. Also, the internals of such a relay are what I am trying to duplicate. It is my this for knowledge

 

[Gusisin]

So in tinkercad circuit design I tested the following:

This is the circuit suggested by @crutschow (thanks) in picture one the system is at rest.


In picture 2, using the slide switch, I connect a logic high to the npn transistor that provides a gate voltage to the mosfet which in turn switched 12V to the load (a motor in this case).

The normal horn function works as expected with the logic 3.3 both high ans low so it seems to work just fine, thank you all.

BTW loving tinkercad circuit design as a test, it reduces magic smoke a lot Now I will build in real components and repeat the test.

 

[Gusisin]

Here's a high-side P-MOSFET switch to power the grounded horn:
It powers the horn with a 3V to 12V input.
The P-MOSFET can be any with at least a 15A, 30V rating.

View attachment 63267

In your diagram you show the source of the mosfet going to 12V and the drain doing to earth via the diode, is this the right interpretation?

 

[crutschow]

In your diagram you show the source of the mosfet going to 12V and the drain doing to earth via the diode, is this the right interpretation?

Yes.
A P-MOSFET's normal operating voltage is positive, source-to-drain (negative drain-to-source).
The diode is to suppress any negative spikes from the inductive horn load that might otherwise damage the MOSFET.

 

[Bluejets]

I want to inject 12V where indicated with a shared ground between micro controller and the car.

.............why?

 

[Gusisin]

.............why?

To sound the horn from a microcontroller with 3.3v logic levels

 

[Bluejets]

I'd be inclined to trace terminals 1 and 2 on the horn switch and place a standard voltage free set of relay contacts across there.
That retains all the original inbuilt wiring and control mechanism without any possibility of feedback or "strange effects" which can happen when you start fooling with auto wiring systems.

The two terminal wire colours are clearly marked and should present no problem tracking them down.
In fact only one would be required (terminal 1) as the other (terminal 2 ) is ground.

 

[Gusisin]

Yes.
A P-MOSFET's normal operating voltage is positive, source-to-drain (negative drain-to-source).
The diode is to suppress any negative spikes from the inductive horn load that might otherwise damage the MOSFET.

So I am a little confused, Instead of the components you suggested I used IRF4905 mosfet and an 2n2222 transistor. I tested it in ciruitlab and got this



However, when I test it in a built circuit on a breadboard and a Veroboard test I get 6.99 volts on the collector of the transistor which is not enough to switch the MOSFET on I think. In circuit lab I see the full 12v on the collector with 3.3v on the base but in real life I only see half the expected value on the gate of the mosfet, 6.99v any ideas why?

 

[Gusisin]

So I am a little confused, Instead of the components you suggested I used IRF4905 mosfet and an 2n2222 transistor. I tested it in ciruitlab and got this

View attachment 63294
View attachment 63295
However, when I test it in a built circuit on a breadboard and a Veroboard test I get 6.99 volts on the collector of the transistor which is not enough to switch the MOSFET on I think. In circuit lab I see the full 12v on the collector with 3.3v on the base but in real life I only see half the expected value on the gate of the mosfet, 6.99v any ideas why?

I am an idiot, I had the transistor upside down. duhhh !

 

[crutschow]

I had the transistor upside down.

Yes, a BJT will work upside down, but with very low current gain.