1/4 vs 1/2 wavelength antenna

J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Reg Edwards
The best I could do is ask what is the S22 of a 6J5. One thing for
certain, it is not mentioned in manufacturer's data sheets. Yet ARRL
simple PA design
rules manage very well without it.

You wouldn't expect to use scattering parameters for a 6J5. But change
that to 7194 and the question is not so facetious. (;-)
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is an amp that fails at one minute with 100w FM
better matched than an amp that fails at two minutes
with 100w CW?

No, you've got the concept backwards. Obviously the worst matched is the
1 o=minute case, next would be the 2 minute case and so on up to one which
runs for about its MTBF at the connected load. This last case would
likely be the one the designer was targeting.
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Woodgate said:
If the FM is what passes for music these days, it's MUCH better IMHO.

There is very little that is sent in the form of radio waves that is worth
the electrical power to send it. The really sad thing is that much of
what is send via FM is really "voice grade" material. When FM was new,
the material for FM was specially produced to take advantage of the wide
bandwidth and large dynamic range.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, you've got the concept backwards. Obviously the worst matched is the
1 o=minute case, next would be the 2 minute case and so on up to one which
runs for about its MTBF at the connected load. This last case would
likely be the one the designer was targeting.

--

It's been thirty years since I "hammed". I was only interested in the
electronics, not the talking, so I dropped out after I got a homemade
solid-state 2-meter rig running.

But I vaguely recall a 5/8 wavelength antenna that had a good
low-angle pattern.

...Jim Thompson
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson said:
But I vaguely recall a 5/8 wavelength antenna that had a good
low-angle pattern.

Unfortunately, the OP (is he still here?) was stuck with a box to short to
even fit a 1/4 wave whip. I also think that this box could not be assumed
to be resting on the ground


If you squint at the ASCII art below, you will see more or less the
radiation pattern of a 5/8 whip over a large ground plain.
.................................
.................!...............
...........******!*****..........
..........*......!......*........
..........*......!......*........
...........****..!..****...A.....
........*******..!..*******......
.....***.........!.........***...
...*.............!.............*B
********************************

If you don't have a large enough ground plain, the notch in the side
labeled "A" starts to go away and the peak at "B" reduces.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Unfortunately, the OP (is he still here?) was stuck with a box to short to
even fit a 1/4 wave whip. I also think that this box could not be assumed
to be resting on the ground


If you squint at the ASCII art below, you will see more or less the
radiation pattern of a 5/8 whip over a large ground plain.
................................
................!...............
..........******!*****..........
.........*......!......*........
.........*......!......*........
..........****..!..****...A.....
.......*******..!..*******......
....***.........!.........***...
..*.............!.............*B
********************************

If you don't have a large enough ground plain, the notch in the side
labeled "A" starts to go away and the peak at "B" reduces.


--

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
K

keith

Jan 1, 1970
0
There is very little that is sent in the form of radio waves that is worth
the electrical power to send it.


Hmm, many advertisers would disagree. Since they have real money at stake
and you don't...
The really sad thing is that much of
what is send via FM is really "voice grade" material. When FM was new,
the material for FM was specially produced to take advantage of the wide
bandwidth and large dynamic range.

Bandwidth, perhaps. Wide dynamic range? The FCC rules seem to
suggest otherwise.
 
K

keith

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's been thirty years since I "hammed". I was only interested in the
electronics, not the talking, so I dropped out after I got a homemade
solid-state 2-meter rig running.

I did the same after putting together a HF setup. The electronics was fun,
but the chirping was booorrring.
But I vaguely recall a 5/8 wavelength antenna that had a good low-angle
pattern.

I didn't know the height affected the pattern that much. IIRC 5/8
wavelength seems to be what the AM stations around here. Though they'd
load up a barn if it worked.
 
R

Richard Clark

Jan 1, 1970
0
Still here, not quite sure who to believe, but enjoying the ride :)

Hi OM,

The long and short of it (apropos of your antenna spec), is that your
shorter antenna will need a new matching circuit (apropos of the
smaller antenna's size) for the related issues of maximum transfer of
power. The reasons for matching may vary (and with it, efficiency),
but not so you would notice. If you did notice, then your production
tolerance (if not customer application) variations will kill you in
the marketplace (fact of life in a Kapitalistic world). No amount of
armchair philosophies about Thevenin's theorem will replace that loss.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
 
J

Jim Kelley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich said:
No, just trying to make the point that it does, in fact, _have_ an
impedance. (even if it's running class E.) What that exact impedance is,
of course, is left as an exercise for the reader. :)

And like any impedance, is a function of frequency.
And another thing - in a transmitter, the impedance matching only happens
at the one frequency, which is a lot different scenario from, say, a
stereo. This could be a confusion factor here.

There may be more similarity than difference over the respective 20 KHz
bandwidth.

ac6xg
 
G

gwhite

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cecil said:
And there's the catch. If the load line is the source
impedance, the load (not the designer) effects the source
impedance.

Exactly. Pure coincidence.
 
G

gwhite

Jan 1, 1970
0
Allan said:
S22 is fairly well defined.

Just to bring back to the original discussion and reiterate:

S22 is a small signal (linear) parameter, by definition. It does not apply to
the large signal environment.

This idea is somewhat related to the idea that power amps should be tuned for
"maximum transfer of power," which is a small signal (s-param) issue, and
requires conjugate matching. The idea is incorrect because it ignores the
practical large signal non-linearity and *any* consideration of DC to RF
efficiency (which is prime for PA design). Linear parameters provide *no*
recognition of things like DC to signal power efficiency and therefore practical
issues like supply rails.

First order matching of an RF PA to a load involves transforming the load to the
optimum point on the AC load line (for example, more or less equal positive and
negative swing limits for class A). That's what "matching" is for an RF PA. It
makes no statement about actual "output impedance" of the source. What is said
is that "such and such RF PA will deliver X power into some specifed impedance
within some VSWR circle." That's all. The concept of output impedance begins
to break down for large signal devices.
 
G

gwhite

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tam/WB2TT said:
There is nothing wrong with driving a transmission line/antenna from a zero
impedance source. It does NOT change the SWR. The point is that an audio
amplifier with a damping factor of 50 is NOT conjugate matched.

Somebody mentioned Motorola Application note 721. This is what it says:

****************************************************************************************
" ..the load, in first approximation, is not related to the device, except
for VCE(sat). The load value is primarily dictated by the required output
power and the peak voltage; it is not matched to the output impedance of the
device. "
*******************************************************************************************

When device people talk about "matching", they mean matching the load to
what the transistor wants to see, which is not the conjugate of the output
impedance. The way this is done is to build an amplifier, and vary the load
until maximum output power is reached. The transistor is then removed, and
the impedance looking into the coupling network is measured. The conjugate
of this is sometimes listed as "output impedance" on data sheets. Newer data
sheets will have an asterisk * next to that, and a note explaining what it
means. If you look at Philips literature, you will see exactly the same
explanation.

Nice. Exactly: "what it wants to see" is perfect. Of course, "varying the
load" requires load pull test equipment and that can be expensive. When load
pull equipment is not available, we're stuck with other methodology. In that
case, my first order cut is the AC load line, a harmonic short at the device,
and enough flexibility in the layout to pull it in by cut and try. I haven't
used ADS or Microwave Office's Harmonic Balance simulators. I suppose with good
behavioral models and a good simulator, a good deal of cut and try could be
circumvented.

Obviously people don't have 100 W (or more!) network analyzers looking into the
output and pretending the device is similar to a linear small signal device.
 
G

gwhite

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cecil said:
So what impedance does the reflected wave encounter?


Don't know. Whatever mismatch there is, at whatever moment in time, it simply
results in reflection back towards the load. Reflections could also cause
additional non-linearity in the PA. Therefore reflections for higher powered
PA's are directed off to a dummy load via a circulator.
 
G

gwhite

Jan 1, 1970
0
No amount of armchair philosophies about
Thevenin's theorem will replace that loss.

Thevenin's is a linear theorem. Large signal devices are not linear. (Hey,
maybe triodes are, but I don't use them for PA's.)

There is no armchair philosophy about Thevenin's theorem because it does not
apply in the RF PA situation. Your's is a red herring.
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hmm, many advertisers would disagree. Since they have real money at stake
and you don't...

They say that 1/2 of all advertising money is just wasted. The problem is
no-one can say which half.

Besides the advertisers don't care about the value of what is sent. They
only care about the wallet of those who are listening.

Bandwidth, perhaps. Wide dynamic range? The FCC rules seem to
suggest otherwise.

How do you arrive at that? FCC rules don't specify the nature of the
music programming, really. If the "music" always has the modulation index
at least 30% with rap, the dynamic range actually needed is much less than
for something from BareNakedLadys
 
R

Richard Clark

Jan 1, 1970
0
Obviously people don't have 100 W (or more!) network analyzers looking into the
output and pretending the device is similar to a linear small signal device.

Hi OM,

Well, it is more accurate to say that you don't, that is for sure.
Defining a solution by negative results can fill up a library without
any positive accomplishment. Obviously people don't have a nuclear
reactor, or lunar lander, or bank account to balance the national
debt. The joke of this, of course, is that no one needs a 100 W (or
more!) network analyzer, or nuclear reactor, or lunar lander, or bank
account to balance the national debt to explain a rather more trivial
problem. Which, by the way, has nothing to do with pretending at all.

The suggestion that
requires load pull test equipment and that can be expensive
does not negate its existence which commonly proves what you choose to
dismiss as impossible. I have calibrated this gear (called an
artificial or active load), and the gear (called transmitters) it
tests and there are no differences in Physics based upon your
presumption of low-power/high-power demarcations.

To say
pretending the device is similar to a linear small signal device
is one of those assumptions forced into the argument. There are any
number of ways to do something wrong. Trumping none of these straw
men validates another wrong impression passing as theory. This
returns us to the imposition of impossibilities to answer a rather
mundane concept, eg.
pretending the device is similar to a small nuclear device
pretending the device is similar to a mars rover
pretending the device is similar to the national debt of Lithuania

So to return to a common question that seems to defy 2 out of 3
analysis (and many demurred along the way) - A simple test of a
practical situation with a practical Amateur grade transistor model
100W transmitter commonly available for more than 20-30 years now:
1. Presuming CW mode into a "matched load" (any definition will do);
2. Report the DC power consumed before hitting the key;
3. Report the DC power consumed while holding the key.

Concurrently note:
A. Report Heat Sink Temperature for a previously idle/rcv condition;
B. Report Heat Sink Temperature after 10 minute key-down.

For a hypothetical "100W" model (again, a contemporary, common example
for Amateur use) available through standard commercial venues:
2. About 20W - 30W
3. About 200W - 250W
A. About 20 degrees C (or room temperature)
B. Well above 37 degrees C (or skin temperature)

Now, if we are to be any judge of efficiency (Thevenin does not have
to be invoked, condemned, or venerated); then it runs close to 50%
(±10%). Others can invoke their favorite deity to explain.

Now, if we are to be any judge of dissipation (no requirement for
advanced degree); then heat as a loss by virtue of less than 100%
efficiency is quite evident. Others can invoke photons to describe
why.

To forestall any armchair engineers, yes, this efficiency is System
efficiency. However, I would be surprised if a practical common
Amateur grade transistor model transmitter commonly available for more
than 20-30 years now has any configuration that does not apply supply
voltage directly to the final transistors; and instead adds a
significant current path outside of this load (citations to available
schematics would be compelling, but any argument without this would be
speculation). It takes very little effort to subtract out the power
drain of the receive mode (being very representative of the similar
power demand of supporting circuitry for transmit up to the driver
stage). Barring such amazing evidence of a significant power drain
not found in the finals, it follows that a simple computation of
efficiency has its merit and has been met.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
 
W

Wes Stewart

Jan 1, 1970
0
SWR foldback is part of impedance matching?

It is in the sense that it improves the source match by trying to hold
the forward power constant regardless of load. Most SWR foldback
systems overreact but a good ALC system, what we called a "leveling
loop" in waveguide reflectometers back in the mid-20th century
certainly improve the source match.
 
G

gwhite

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Cecil Moore <[email protected]>


Not only that, but since by definition the Universe started at T=0, any
'sine wave' that starts at a positive zero-crossing is at any later time
indistinguishable from a real one that started at T=0.

Not if we were there the moment the later wave turned on. I heard that amateur
operators hate splatter. RC appears to be an exception, however.
 
Top