Advice for sci.electronics.design

[Rich The Philosophizer]

The good thing about anarchy is that it allows natural patterns to
become apparent. By forcing arbitrary external rules upon a system, one
influences the kinds of patterns that appear, and thus limits the
possible responses.

Japanese gardeners will wait until a path emerges before they put down
stepping stones.

This is a piss-poor argument in favor of anarchy. The path appears where
the people have been walking, duh. I heard a UL about a new school campus
where they didn't install concrete walks right away, but just let the kids
walk from building to building across the grass, and they put the concrete
walks where the grass was dead that next semester.

The truest meaning of "anarchy" is "no kings or emperors or nanny
or Big Brother". In other words, it's the scariest way known to
refer to "Free Will."

But it should be obvious to any reasoning person that Free Will is
the only way to properly run a universe. When every interaction between
people is done to the satisfaction of each, both benefit and there's
nothing to fight about.

This clearly doesn't apply to everything in life,

Of course it does! Humans are the only species who denies Free Will!

Oh, yeah, there are predators who will "deny your free will" by
killing you and eating you, but that's supposed to change Real Soon
Now, according to Gawd.

Good Luck!

 

[Robert Latest]

I can see some logic in this persons advice. I am quite curious about
what such advice other 'campers' here have on the subject. Is there, in
fact, some consensus on how best to post questions, and respond to such
posts, etc.

Yes. When posting a question, try to include information on what
effort you have done so far to answer it yourself.

When answering, quote only relevant parts of the preceding post
and type your contribution below that.

robert

 

[Rich Grise]

.

Besides, I believe, there's a fundamental flaw in your concept of a
public forum dedicated to product development in that anyone doing
product development is going to be constrained (either by an NDA or by
prudence) in what they can divulge without compromising their
marketing position. I certainly wouldn't blab about what I might be
doing (loose lips sink ships, you know) to the world if I expected to
hit the market with my new widget before anyone else could.

I have a couple of widgets that I'd like to see get to market, but
unfortunately I don't have the resources or the contacts to go to
an Asian manufacturer and say, "Hey, build me 100,000 of these things."
And show them a drawing, and have a couple of containerfuls of
left-hand opening microwave ovens or turbo house-vacs show up at
the harbor.

But the one, fully half of the kitchens in the world cry out for them;
the other will depend on the business of home handypersons or maybe
professional house painters.

So, anybody wanna order 100,000 or a million left-hand opening
microwave ovens, haul them to Sears, and send me, say, a buck an
oven? For the house-vac, since it's only an attachment that
couldn't break $9.95, I guess the best I could hope for is -
well, I'd still like a buck a unit. WTF, what do I have to lose?

Thanks!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

(Wiping tears from my eyes)

Fred, you were doing so well till that last sentence. ;-)

Obviously, I am not filtering your posts.

Well, thanks for sharing this with those of us who are.

And, BTW, just FYI, Fred, it's Fields whose contributions always contain
a mistake, but I do have to admit, he corrects them forthwith, and his
stuff evidently works. FWIW. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

"THE STANDARD ADVICE:
[etc]
The above, of course, fully applies to my own posts - including this one.

I think you are mostly on-track. But I disagree with a few points. First,
it is always good to follow up to articles which give bad advice to people
who may or may not have the judgement to recognize it. This applies
regardless of all other considerations.

Also, when a new persona appears and posts off-topic stuff, it is totally
reasonable (and probably even good netiquette) to follow-up and say
"You're question is off-topic here. For a better idea of what is on-topic,
please see the <charter | faq list | welcome post | whatever>. For your
particular question, you might find better advice at alt.foo.bar."
Often, in other news groups, such people just say "Sorry, I didn't know.
I'll go away now." The only reason I don't do that is that I got the
impression that SED tolerated off-topic posts in a way that other groups I
read most definitely do not.

I believe that's because s.e.d. is where the smart people hang out.

Finally, I think it is reasonable to put-forth opinions on the best way to
deal with off-topic posts if they are becoming a problem, even when such
ideas contravene one of your guidelines. For example, if a regular
responds to an obvious troll, it makes sense to tell the regular, "hey,
don't feed the trolls!" And if Guy Macon believes there is a Better Way,
it makes sense for him to post and tell everyone about it. Once. ;-)

But with trolls, or people (including regulars) who are deliberately
trying to "stir the pot," by posting about politics and so on, the best
course of action is probably to ignore them, which is what I think you are
saying.

<AOL>
Me, Too!
</AOL>

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

.

... Look at Rich, he even shows his ... craving for
appreciation love affection reputation prestige...

Well, it seems to be working so far ...

<choke>

 

[Guy Macon]

So, anybody wanna order 100,000 or a million left-hand opening
microwave ovens, haul them to Sears, and send me, say, a buck an
oven?

I still think that this is one of the best ideas I have ever
heard, and I still for the life of me cannot figure out how
you can make the big bucks you deserve for seeing what others
missed (but which is obvious once you hear of the idea).

You *could* wait until misc.business.product-dev gets to where
it is running well and pose the same question there...

 

[Fred Bloggs]

I still think that this is one of the best ideas I have ever heard,
and I still for the life of me cannot figure out how you can make the
big bucks you deserve for seeing what others missed (but which is
obvious once you hear of the idea).

Nobody has missed the idea, retard; almost every appliance with a door
is interchangeable left to right. The microwave oven is different
because of a set of interlock switches and locking mechanisms internal
to the housing as well as the fact that it is a monitored and certified
microwave seal not to be tampered with by the customer or dealer, by
law. You can easily triple the retail price with a fixed reverse door.
But , hey, if you're a know-nothing with drug abuse induced brain
damage, then this simple non-idea of an "idea" may appear "awesome." I
can see now that your p-d group will consist of a bunch worthless
crap-for-brains rejects.

 

[John Fields]

You have incorrectly assessed my internal mental state.

---
Perhaps, but I think it's interesting (and telling) that instead of
stating _why_ my assessment was incorrect, you chose to edit my post
by snipping the salient bits, then merely disagreeing with what you
found so distasteful you had to eliminate it. If this is how you act
in an unmoderated group where you wield no power, I think your stint
as a moderator is going to win you no friends.
---

You are correct, and I expect that there will be a lack of details
about products under development. I briefly considered offering an
option that would allow posts to go through a user-defined chain of
mixmaster anonymizers, but I concluded that keeping the product
details secret is more important than keeping the name of the
developer secret. I don't know whether this will be a fatal flaw.


I won't allow the vultures to post, and those who think they have
something which is going to make them rich (but lack the skills to
develop it) will have to be told the truth. They might not like it
but it's the right thing to do.

---
The "truth" as you see it?

What might that be?
---

Which, of course, I will handle with a FAQ.


Perhaps. Time will tell.


Such people do exist. You obviously are not one of them, of course,
so I would expect you to continue using s.e.d as you always have, knowing
that it is unmoderated and that no proposal to moderate it will be
allowed to be voted upon.


Indeed they are, and I wouldn't change that even if I could.

---
Sure you would. You already said you had a whiz-bang way to stop
off-topic posters dead in their tracks, which indicates to me that if
you could, you'd change the nature of sed. Otherwise, why offer it up
as a "solution"? for a problem which you wouldn't change, if you
could?
---

I have a question for you; should I whitelist you so that your
posts go straight to misc.business.product-dev without moderation?

---
Do what you like, it makes no difference to me.

I have no interest in participating in any discussion where what I
post is subject to the whims and vagaries of a self-appointed
moderator or a moderator of any type.
---

The answer to that depends on whether you are inclined to follow
the moderation policy when posting to m.b.p-d. even though you
strongly disagree with it and very much prefer unmoderated groups.

---
It seems incredible to me that you think that complying with a
"moderation policy" is something that is important to me. It isn't.
As a matter of fact, I find it repugnant and will have nothing to do
with any moderated newsgroup.
---

Your comments above about vultures and sheep were quite insightful,
and I would have approved them in a heartbeat in a [POLICY] post
to m.b.p-d.

 

[John Fields]

You have incorrectly identified my "lament." I *LIKE* things like
the BBQ and grand-dad posts. What I don't like is the fact that
they (as well as post after post about George Bush) are usually
labeled in the subject line as posts about electronic design, thus
wasting my time when I wish to read about electronic design.

I think that people should have choices and that it is rude to erect
artificial barriers limiting those choices. Those who fill threads
that start out being about electronics with posts about politics are
erecting a barrier limiting the choice of reading about electronics
without politics.

 

[Guy Macon]

Perhaps, but I think it's interesting (and telling) that instead of
stating _why_ my assessment was incorrect

A statement of fact by a person who is in a position to know that
fact needs no justification. If I say that you hate orange juice
and you tell me that I am incorrect and that you actually enjoy
orange juice, you don't have to tell me why my assessment was
incorrect - you just have to tell me that you like orange juice.

Sure you would. You already said you had a whiz-bang way to stop
off-topic posters dead in their tracks, which indicates to me that if
you could, you'd change the nature of sed.

You are incorrect again. You appear to lack the ability to peer
into someone's mind and determine their desires and motivations.
I do hope that my pointing out this apparemt lack of psychic ability
does not upset you too much.

Otherwise, why offer it up as a "solution"? for a problem which
you wouldn't change, if you could?

Ah. I see that you are confusing a possible change in any aspect
of any thread with "changing the nature of sed." If that is your
definition, you change the nature of sed every time you post, and
so do I.

If you are impying that I wish to limit or change your actions in
any way, I assure you that I lack that ability and that I wouldn't
want to if I could. Perhaps you wish to control those who have
expressed a desire to read a few threads that stay on-topic, but
you can't. They have the same freedom that you do.

if you're serious about increasing the signal-to-noise ratio
on usenet, stop trolling this NG with your off-topic crap.

THE STANDARD ADVICE:

There is a way to influence what gets discussed in a newsgroup that
works well, and another way that has never worked no matter how many
people have tried it.

What works: Post articles on the topic you wish to see discussed,
and participate in the resulting discussion. Use killfiles and
filters so that you don't see the articles that you dislike.
If you don't know how to use a killfile, use good old fashioned
discipline and don't read the articles that you dislike. Never,
ever respond to articles that you dislike.

What doesn't work: Respond to articles that you dislike, complain
about articles that you dislike, complain about posters that you
dislike, complain about how terrible everyone else is for not posting
what you want them to post. Talk about how to respond to articles
that you dislike. Make the articles that you dislike the center of
attention, the main topic of discussion, and a personal crusade.

(Please note that it may be appropriate to post a correction if
someone is giving out false information in a technical newsgroup,
and that it may be appropriate to tell someone about The Standard
Advice, but please be aware of the possibility of becoming a troll
feeder while doing so)

 

[Bob Monsen]

This is a piss-poor argument in favor of anarchy. The path appears where
the people have been walking, duh.

Well, the point is that if they had put the stones down before, they
never would have found the path that most people liked. It's like
capitalism. Pencils get built because there are literally hundreds of
different little businesses all over the globe that collect the parts,
transport the parts, manufacture them, transport them to stores, sell
them, etc. Almost nobody in the chain knows what the other guys are
doing. There isn't a central planner for making and selling pencils.
There are just local needs and resources, and positive feedback for
certain activities, in the form of capital. Trying to force people to
build pencils by making plans is far less efficient, particularly when
the situation changes quickly.

I heard a UL about a new school campus
where they didn't install concrete walks right away, but just let the kids
walk from building to building across the grass, and they put the concrete
walks where the grass was dead that next semester.

The truest meaning of "anarchy" is "no kings or emperors or nanny
or Big Brother". In other words, it's the scariest way known to
refer to "Free Will."

In the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", the mice want to buy Arthur's
brain, and dissect it to find the question of "Life, the Universe, and
Everything". Zaphod says "Well, we'll just replace your brain with a
mechanical one, that says 'huh?' and 'what?' Nobody will know the
difference!". Arthur complains that *he* would know the difference, but
Zaphod says "No, that is the beauty of it, we'll program you *not* to
know the difference!".

 

[Roger Johansson]

In the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", the mice want to buy
Arthur's brain, and dissect it to find the question of "Life, the
Universe, and Everything". Zaphod says "Well, we'll just replace your
brain with a mechanical one, that says 'huh?' and 'what?' Nobody will
know the difference!". Arthur complains that he would know the
difference, but Zaphod says "No, that is the beauty of it, we'll
program you not to know the difference!".

In the news this week in my country we have heard about social studies
in kindergartens.

Earlier they put the boys and girls at mixed tables when they had
lunch. The thought was that the girls would act as cooling elements
among radioactive fuel elements. The girls kept the boys calmer by
their presence.

When they studied the videos from the lunches they saw that the boys
did not talk, they just grunted, or pushed a girl sitting next to them
with the elbow when they wanted something.

The girl looked at what the boy had on his plate, realized what he
needed more of, and got it for him.

So they decided to let the boys sit at one table and the girls at
another, to see what happened.

Confusion and irritation broke out at the boys table as they tried to
make each other help them.
They did not even know the names of the stuff on the table, so they had
to learn to use words like milk, corn flakes, and marmalade.

Who are raising and teaching the boys and the girls stuff?

Their mothers. They are the ones who make boys who can only say what
and huh. Or is it their fathers?

I wonder how much our lives and minds are still influenced by
traditions and social processes from the stone age.

 

[Ban]

Confusion and irritation broke out at the boys table as they tried to
make each other help them.
They did not even know the names of the stuff on the table, so they
had to learn to use words like milk, corn flakes, and marmalade.

Who are raising and teaching the boys and the girls stuff?

Their mothers. They are the ones who make boys who can only say what
and huh. Or is it their fathers?

I wonder how much our lives and minds are still influenced by
traditions and social processes from the stone age.

Well, I had some friends from Goteburg visiting me and the husband was only
allowed to say huh. Seems a tradition in your country that carries on the
whole life.

 

[Roger Johansson]

Well, I had some friends from Goteburg visiting me and the husband
was only allowed to say huh. Seems a tradition in your country that
carries on the whole life.

Yes, that is the scary part of it.

By the way, I watched your webcams one morning as the sun went up.

I almost felt like sending you an email asking you to lean out your
window and ask for that girls telephone number. She was standing
outside your house for a while looking out over the sea. Long blonde
hair.

"No way Jose, that is my wife.", maybe.

I went on to contemplate how much of that former beach which is now
covered with asphalt and gravel, for cars to drive on. All horisontal
areas in the right web cam are car areas.

Maybe in the future you can put the cars underground and have nice
grassy slopes down towards the sea.

 

[John Fields]

A statement of fact by a person who is in a position to know that
fact needs no justification. If I say that you hate orange juice
and you tell me that I am incorrect and that you actually enjoy
orange juice, you don't have to tell me why my assessment was
incorrect - you just have to tell me that you like orange juice.

---
Just so there's no question about what I posted, here it is again:

"You're not interested in moderating the group in order to make it
more "productive", what you're interested in is having dominion over
a population. Whether or not you ever exercise the power, merely
being _able_ to puts your ilk in a heady state of being."

Notice that that's not quite as cut-and-dried as your orange juice
sidestep, where there's no onus on not liking orange juice.

I maintain that your interest lies in being able to control others,
and in this instance has caused you to go so far as to become a
"moderator", where you will have ultimate authority over whether
anyone is able to post content which you find to be objectionable.

You have already demonstrated your desire for that control by your
actions in this newsgroup; an example of which is your editing of my
posts in your replies. Not just snippage for the sake of brevity, but
snippage for the sake of changing context.
---

You are incorrect again. You appear to lack the ability to peer
into someone's mind and determine their desires and motivations.
I do hope that my pointing out this apparemt lack of psychic ability
does not upset you too much.

---
Your attempt at a personal attack indicates that you have found my
statement incontrovertible and can't counter it with a factual
refutation.
---

Ah. I see that you are confusing a possible change in any aspect
of any thread with "changing the nature of sed." If that is your
definition, you change the nature of sed every time you post, and
so do I.

---
The infinitessimal change in nature because of the content of an
individual post isn't what's being discussed. What _is_ being
discussed is the change in the nature of the group which would come
about if you had your way and only on-topic posts were allowed.

You can't deny that that's what you've advocated time and time again,
so why lie and say that you wouldn't change sed even if you could?
---

If you are impying that I wish to limit or change your actions in
any way, I assure you that I lack that ability and that I wouldn't
want to if I could.

---
You're a liar. I'm abrasive, I post off-topic material all the time,
and I'm often profane. You've stated that you find those actions
offensive and have offered to offer a plan which would make it
impossible for that kind of behavior to be allowed on this NG. That
sounds to me like if you had your druthers you'd certainly change
things around here so they'd be more to your liking.

Or, I suggest, since there's not a damn thing you can do about it
you've resigned yourself to taking the position that you're really
disinterested and quite above it all.
---

Perhaps you wish to control those who have
expressed a desire to read a few threads that stay on-topic, but
you can't. They have the same freedom that you do.

---
Awww, poor baby, is what you're whining about surreptitiously that I'm
trying to control one of the downtrodden "who have expressed a desire
to read a few threads that stay on-topic"?

You, for instance?

LOL, do you feel a desire to do my bidding or the world closing in on
you and a sense of fear if you don't?

You're pathetic.
---

THE STANDARD ADVICE:

There is a way to influence what gets discussed in a newsgroup that
works well, and another way that has never worked no matter how many
people have tried it.

What works: Post articles on the topic you wish to see discussed,
and participate in the resulting discussion. Use killfiles and
filters so that you don't see the articles that you dislike.
If you don't know how to use a killfile, use good old fashioned
discipline and don't read the articles that you dislike. Never,
ever respond to articles that you dislike.

---
So, you responded to my article because you liked it and decided to
add fuel to the fire with misspelling and sarcasm, to wit:

"I do hope that my pointing out this apparemt lack of psychic ability
does not upset you too much."
---

 

[Guy Macon]

Just so there's no question about what I posted, here it is again:

Most people have the ability to read threads, which is why I ignore
you when you whine about how much gets quoted, but if posting things
twice makes you happy, then I am happy for you.

"You're not interested in moderating the group in order to make it
more "productive", what you're interested in is having dominion over
a population. Whether or not you ever exercise the power, merely
being _able_ to puts your ilk in a heady state of being."

Notice that that's not quite as cut-and-dried as your orange juice
sidestep, where there's no onus on not liking orange juice.

I can add an onus if that's your objection. Here goes:

A statement of fact by a person who is in a position to know that
fact needs no justification. If I say that you like to have have
sex with sheep and you tell me that I am incorrect, you don't have
to tell me why my assessment was incorrect - you just have to tell
me that you don't like to have sex with sheep.

What you are missing (on purpose?) is that you are making claims
about my internal mental state and then demanding that I explain
why you are wrong. How would I know why you are wrong? I just
know that you are, and that I am the only person who really knows
what my own internal mental state is.

I maintain that your interest lies in being able to control others,

You are wrong. I have no interest in being able to control others.
Why would I want to do a thing like that?

and in this instance has caused you to go so far as to become a
"moderator"

Why the quotation marks? Are you ignorant about how Usenet works?

where you will have ultimate authority over whether
anyone is able to post content which you find to be objectionable.

In another (moderated) newsgroup. Why do you have your panties
in a wad over what happens in another newsgroup? Do you have some
sort of bizarre fantasy that this in some way has an affect on you
even if you don't read or post there?

You have already demonstrated your desire for that control by your
actions in this newsgroup; an example of which is your editing of my
posts in your replies. Not just snippage for the sake of brevity, but
snippage for the sake of changing context.

That's your opinion, but I disagree. I think my snippage is appropriate
and that you are throwing in a red herring. The fact that your snippage
is poorly done is evident; you usually don't snip at all and quote the
entire post.

Your attempt at a personal attack indicates that you have found my
statement incontrovertible and can't counter it with a factual
refutation.

Same logical fallacy as before. A statement of fact by a person
who is in a position to know told to a person who has no way of
knowing needs no justification.

The infinitessimal change in nature because of the content of an
individual post isn't what's being discussed. What _is_ being
discussed is the change in the nature of the group which would come
about if you had your way and only on-topic posts were allowed.

Liar. I have no desire to only allow on-topic posts in s.e.d,
and I lack the ability to cause such a change even if your fantasies
about my motives were true.

You can't deny that that's what you've advocated time and time again,

I deny that that's what you've advocated time and time again. Feel
free to post a message-ID of me saying that I want only on-topic posts
*to be allowed*. You can't, because I never wrote that. I know I never
wrote that because I have no such desire. Yes, I would like you to
stop yapping, but I have no desire (or ability) to force you to do so.

so why lie and say that you wouldn't change sed even if you could?

Nice shift there. You went from "only allow on-topic posts" to
"change sed." This is an ongoing pattern for you; you consistently
confuse someone asking for something to happen with someone forcing
something to happen.

You're a liar. I'm abrasive, I post off-topic material all the time,
and I'm often profane. You've stated that you find those actions
offensive

And you can't tell the difference between someone finding your
actions offensive and wishing to outlaw them?

and have offered to offer a plan which would make it
impossible for that kind of behavior to be allowed on this NG.

Bullshit. Please explain *IN DETAIL* how anyone can possibly in
any way limit anything you do if you choose to not post to post
to moderated newsgroups.

That sounds to me like if you had your druthers you'd certainly
change things around here so they'd be more to your liking.

I can't help what things sound like to you. You are biased.

with misspelling

OOOH!! A SPELLING FLAME! I AM *SOOO* IMPRESSED!!!!

Should I point out your misspelling of "infinitesimal" above?

 

[Guy Macon]

It's like
capitalism. Pencils get built because there are literally hundreds of
different little businesses all over the globe that collect the parts,
transport the parts, manufacture them, transport them to stores, sell
them, etc. Almost nobody in the chain knows what the other guys are
doing. There isn't a central planner for making and selling pencils.
There are just local needs and resources, and positive feedback for
certain activities, in the form of capital. Trying to force people to
build pencils by making plans is far less efficient, particularly when
the situation changes quickly.

This is great. You are lecturing Rich the Dreaded Libertarian
on free markets. You might as well tell Win how to write or tell
Genome how to be an asswipe.

 

[John Larkin]

What you are missing (on purpose?) is that you are making claims
about my internal mental state and then demanding that I explain
why you are wrong. How would I know why you are wrong? I just
know that you are, and that I am the only person who really knows
what my own internal mental state is.

This is sci.electronics.design. I'd wager that very few of the people
here give a rat's ass about your internal mental states.

Please go over to your private newsgroup where you can self-absorb to
your heart's content.

John

 

[Jim Thompson]

This is sci.electronics.design. I'd wager that very few of the people
here give a rat's ass about your internal mental states.

Please go over to your private newsgroup where you can self-absorb to
your heart's content.

John

Bwahahahahaha! John you sure do have Guy's chain dancing around ;-)

...Jim Thompson