AP placement

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
Hi Joerg,


Highest temperature I've measured in this space was 141F (~60C)
on a 110F Summer day. I figure a device *intended* for use
in direct sunlight would probably be OK in such a place.

I assume that was sans electronics. Now imagine a unit in there that
dissipates 10 watts all the time, and no ventilation ... psshhhhh ... *PHUT*

Or worse ...

If I were to put it in the garage, I could just fasten it to
the ceiling (still an eyesore). ...


But who cares? It ain't the living room :)

... But, not an ideal location
there. Best spot would be in an interior wall. But, walls are
hard to gain access to "discretely". An access panel would
be just as much of an eyesore as the device itself. :<

Maybe I can tinker with one of the skylights and hide it
in the space "beside" same.


Or put a Jersey of your favorite football team over it. Oh wait, you are
probably married as well ...
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
Hi Joerg,


I keep most of my machines (this is office space, not lab space)
under the tabletops. Currently, two dual Xeon 1.4G servers (W2Ks
and NetBSD), a 3G dual-core workstation (XP), a Tatung SB-1000
(Solaris) and a dinkly little 1G Piii that serves as my bastion
host. Plus, a duplexed LJ4M+ and a color Phaser 560, 16 port
switch, two DLT8000 10x libraries, two UPS's and a subwoofer.

Hmm, I do hardcore simulations and all that yet all there is here is one
desktop (on the ground) and one netbook on the desk. This is also the
office. In the lab there's just one laptop.

Maybe get rid of some machines ... :)

Power cords "hang" from the underside of the tables (6 x 6 outlet
strips). But, some cord ends up lying on the floor as well.
And, all the network cabling (there are 12 drops in that area
alone) and SCSI cables (4 scanners, disk arrays, tape transports
and libraries) as well as USB cables (printers, video and audio
accessories, etc.), serial cables, etc.

There are no cables on the ground here. The ones that were too long
meander in the channels and are tucked together with lacing cord and
stuff so nothing slides out.

"Clean up" would be ineffective unless I could *toss* a fair
amount of this stuff... :-(


It's got to be done anyhow, some day.

[and that doesn't count what's "off-line"]
Or hang reflectors behind. Central would be better though. How about
on a small shelf mounted above a doorway?

I suggested that for the doorway in the laundry room. My
suggestion was met with a "Frown of Displeasure" :-/


Oh, then I am blessed. My wife also frowns upon certain suggestions,
then there's the "Now you've got to be kidding!" category, but the
laundry room would be ok.
 
D

D Yuniskis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Joerg,
I assume that was sans electronics. Now imagine a unit in there that
dissipates 10 watts all the time, and no ventilation ... psshhhhh ...
*PHUT*

The "ceiling" is ventilated. Otherwise your roof wouldn't
last one season!
Or worse ...


But who cares? It ain't the living room :)

Then why not leave *everything* "exposed"? :> I am amazed
at how much *crap* there is that should be "hidden" (and
I haven't even begun to tackle the zone controls for the
HVAC, yet!). Of course, some things *can't* (smoke/CO).
Next house I think we will build and put this stuff into
the plans *before* the walls go up! :-/

Or, *my* idea... very *little* "living area" and oodles of
"work/play area" -- preferably below grade!!
 
D

D Yuniskis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Joerg,
Hmm, I do hardcore simulations and all that yet all there is here is one
desktop (on the ground) and one netbook on the desk. This is also the
office. In the lab there's just one laptop.

Maybe get rid of some machines ... :)

I have tools hosted on a variety of OS's. And, write code
in a variety of different environments. I've tried, in the past,
multi-boot configurations but they have been way too hard to
maintain (upgrade that *one* machine and you spend a long time
getting everything working again).

So, I tailor each machine to a particular purpose. Easier to
find space for a machine than it is to try to get the tools
working on a machine that they aren't compatible with.

E.g., I do my mechanical CAD on a different machine than
I do my DTP work. Different peripherals, different computational
loads, etc.

I am hoping the trend in virtualization will eventually let
me move even more of this stuff to "portable" implementations.
But, for now, I stick with what works.
There are no cables on the ground here. The ones that were too long
meander in the channels and are tucked together with lacing cord and
stuff so nothing slides out.

But I suspect you don't have as many "things" in one space! :)
E.g., there are 36 power outlets under the tabletops. All of
them have something plugged into them (though few are
actually "on" at any given time).

And, everything on top of the tabletop connects to a machine
*under* it. So, all of those cables come down to meet up
with their respective hosts.
It's got to be done anyhow, some day.

That's why god invented retirement! :>
[and that doesn't count what's "off-line"]
And, it's located too far to the front of the house;
the AP should be either central or towards the rear
(for coverage of the back yard)

Or hang reflectors behind. Central would be better though. How about
on a small shelf mounted above a doorway?

I suggested that for the doorway in the laundry room. My
suggestion was met with a "Frown of Displeasure" :-/

Oh, then I am blessed. My wife also frowns upon certain suggestions,
then there's the "Now you've got to be kidding!" category, but the
laundry room would be ok.

Our laundry room acts as a primary entrance/egress as it connects
to the garage. So, anything in there gets seen a lot -- either
as you come into the house or exit from it.

We're still arguing about locating the power transformers
for the landscape lighting *above* the doorway into the
house *from* the garage (i.e., only visible from inside the
garage when you are entering the house).

<shrug> But, like a democracy, we vote on these things.
With the two of us, that's easy: just three votes to
count -- one for me, ...
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
Hi Joerg,


I have tools hosted on a variety of OS's. And, write code
in a variety of different environments. I've tried, in the past,
multi-boot configurations but they have been way too hard to
maintain (upgrade that *one* machine and you spend a long time
getting everything working again).

So, I tailor each machine to a particular purpose. Easier to
find space for a machine than it is to try to get the tools
working on a machine that they aren't compatible with.

E.g., I do my mechanical CAD on a different machine than
I do my DTP work. Different peripherals, different computational
loads, etc.

I am hoping the trend in virtualization will eventually let
me move even more of this stuff to "portable" implementations.
But, for now, I stick with what works.

I've tried Linux in a virtual machine on this office PC. Works like a
champ. The really cool thing is, I could configure it so I can mouse
over to the other OS and, for example, copy something from a Linux
program into a Windows program.

But I suspect you don't have as many "things" in one space! :)


No, I try to be sort of a minimalist, I don't need more than one PC at a
time. Maybe two during Gerber reviews and that's where the netbook or a
laptop comes in.

E.g., there are 36 power outlets under the tabletops. All of
them have something plugged into them (though few are
actually "on" at any given time).

And, everything on top of the tabletop connects to a machine
*under* it. So, all of those cables come down to meet up
with their respective hosts.
It's got to be done anyhow, some day.

That's why god invented retirement! :>
[and that doesn't count what's "off-line"]

And, it's located too far to the front of the house;
the AP should be either central or towards the rear
(for coverage of the back yard)

Or hang reflectors behind. Central would be better though. How about
on a small shelf mounted above a doorway?

I suggested that for the doorway in the laundry room. My
suggestion was met with a "Frown of Displeasure" :-/

Oh, then I am blessed. My wife also frowns upon certain suggestions,
then there's the "Now you've got to be kidding!" category, but the
laundry room would be ok.

Our laundry room acts as a primary entrance/egress as it connects
to the garage. So, anything in there gets seen a lot -- either
as you come into the house or exit from it.

Same here, but guests rarely enter that way.

We're still arguing about locating the power transformers
for the landscape lighting *above* the doorway into the
house *from* the garage (i.e., only visible from inside the
garage when you are entering the house).

I just drilled a hole and hung it. Fait a complit, as the French say ...

<shrug> But, like a democracy, we vote on these things.
With the two of us, that's easy: just three votes to
count -- one for me, ...


I hear ya :)
 
D

D Yuniskis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
I've tried Linux in a virtual machine on this office PC. Works like a
champ. The really cool thing is, I could configure it so I can mouse
over to the other OS and, for example, copy something from a Linux
program into a Windows program.

That's what I do on one of my Sun boxes -- except the "emulation"
is with real hardware (a PC *inside* the Sun). It has worked well
for supporting *really* old tools. I just create a bunch of
9G "files" (seems a respectible size for a filesystem) for each
of the emulation environments I want to run. Comething gets
hosed? Just copy filesystemX.original to filesystem.current
and click "reboot PC".

The SunPCi even has dedicated serial port (and video if
I ever needed it) so I can support some older ICE's that
need that *real* hardware (not virtualized).
No, I try to be sort of a minimalist, I don't need more than one PC at a
time. Maybe two during Gerber reviews and that's where the netbook or a
laptop comes in.

Ditto. But *which* PC I need varies. I may be writing a driver
(emacs under NetBSD) on one machine, referring to the schematic
for it on another (Windows), and viewing a console session to
the target on a third. Hence the "U" layout -- makes it
easy for me to move from machine to machine without having to
move my chair :-/
Same here, but guests rarely enter that way.

It's not the guests she worries about. *She* doesn't want
to see it! We have very different outlooks in that regard.
E.g., she sees it a waste of effort to do any landscaping etc.
in the front yard -- preferring to spend all the effort on
the *back* yard (which only *we* can see). said:
I just drilled a hole and hung it. Fait a complit, as the French say ...

Depends on how much that sort of thing "costs you" (afterwards).
I'd prefer a mutually satisfying solution. And, cleaner
looking *is* cleaner looking :-/
I hear ya :)

Can't win...

"Be reasonable: do it MY way..."
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
Hi Joerg,


The "ceiling" is ventilated. Otherwise your roof wouldn't
last one season!

The space between drywall and roof is? That wouldn't be very
energy-efficient.

Anyhow, ours is different. 2" pecky cedar, soundboard insulation, double
felt, batten system, fiber insulation between the battens, Dekra metal
shingles on top. Any electronics device in there, if it contains
electrolytics, would almost be guaranteed to be dead by August.

Then why not leave *everything* "exposed"? :> I am amazed
at how much *crap* there is that should be "hidden" (and
I haven't even begun to tackle the zone controls for the
HVAC, yet!). Of course, some things *can't* (smoke/CO).
Next house I think we will build and put this stuff into
the plans *before* the walls go up! :-/

Well, I could mount the HVAC controls flush but it'll still show. It's
kind of hard to look at the LCD and operate buttons when it's behind
drywall :)

Or, *my* idea... very *little* "living area" and oodles of
"work/play area" -- preferably below grade!!


Yup. But we are married ...
 
D

D Yuniskis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
The space between drywall and roof is? That wouldn't be very
energy-efficient.

Yes. There is fiberglass insulation in there but also a channel
(above) for air to flow on the underside of the roofing. I think
this is true even of regular attics (and in other parts of the
country as well). E.g., my folks' home in new england has a
roof vent the entire length of the ridgeline. And, real vents
in the gable ends of the attic! I.e., in winter, the attic is
*cold* -- but the fiberglass on top of the "ceiling" (below)
keeps that cold from infiltrating the house itself.
Anyhow, ours is different. 2" pecky cedar, soundboard insulation, double
felt, batten system, fiber insulation between the battens, Dekra metal
shingles on top. Any electronics device in there, if it contains
electrolytics, would almost be guaranteed to be dead by August.


Well, I could mount the HVAC controls flush but it'll still show. It's
kind of hard to look at the LCD and operate buttons when it's behind
drywall :)

I've been moving all of the controls to "virtual controls"
instead of dedicated "control panels". Ideally, two or three
"stations" around the house (by the exterior doors, etc.)
from which you can access these things -- *if* you need to
access them (otherwise, talk to the controller from a PC,
etc. and "set once"). I mean, how often do you have to tweek
the irrigation schedule, etc.??
Yup. But we are married ...

All the more reason! ;-) Keep you out of each other's hair
and let you independently manage your own "mess"! :> Guests
wonder why they are never allowed in the office...
 
Don't think that will be a problem - it might even help. Radio signals
at that frequency will bounce of hard surfaces and 'ping-pong' to other
places. Think of the ways that light distributes.

However, if your wireless kit is generally the other side of the
metalwork and away from the Access Point, than that might be an
shielding issue.

Easy thing to experiment with though.

Failing that, why not disguise it as a pot plant?

I have my DSL modem and wireless router on the top of bookshelves in the great
room. They're about 8' off the floor in almost dead center in the house and
can only be seen from one place on the "catwalk" between the upstairs
bedrooms. Works great.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
Yes. There is fiberglass insulation in there but also a channel
(above) for air to flow on the underside of the roofing. I think
this is true even of regular attics (and in other parts of the
country as well). E.g., my folks' home in new england has a
roof vent the entire length of the ridgeline. And, real vents
in the gable ends of the attic! I.e., in winter, the attic is
*cold* -- but the fiberglass on top of the "ceiling" (below)
keeps that cold from infiltrating the house itself.

That's what we have in the office part of the house. Maybe I
misunderstoof and you don't have cathedral ceilings. Then yeah, you
could put it into the attic. But: Attics become freaking hot in summer
and ice cold in winter. Not so great for electrolytics.

I've been moving all of the controls to "virtual controls"
instead of dedicated "control panels". Ideally, two or three
"stations" around the house (by the exterior doors, etc.)
from which you can access these things -- *if* you need to
access them (otherwise, talk to the controller from a PC,
etc. and "set once"). I mean, how often do you have to tweek
the irrigation schedule, etc.??

I am a strong believer in decentralized systems. Especially after rather
bad experiences with X10. Nothing beats something hardwired.

All the more reason! ;-) Keep you out of each other's hair
and let you independently manage your own "mess"! :> Guests
wonder why they are never allowed in the office...


My wife hates messes. But I can't have a messy office anyways because I
always serve several clients at the same time. Got to keep all that
strictly separated. So there's coded folders, boxes and so on. In the
evening there's (usually) a clean desk and lab bench surface, all neatly
tucked away.
 
C

Charlie E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Charlie,


That just changes the problem to "hiding a cabinet" instead
of "hiding an AP". :<

*Behind* a medicine cabinet might be a good option (since access
would be hidden yet still available). But, then you're dealing
with a (metal) medicine cabinet instead of HVAC ducts. :-/

Maybe use a picostation hidden behind an "old works" Jbox.
A bit of a nuisance to access but do-able. Trick would be
figuring out how to locate it high enough in the wall...

That is why the suggestion of the coat or linen closet, or panty, or
other storage space near the center of the house. Then you don't need
to hide it!

Great place to also put your wire distribution center, as well.

Charlie
 
D

D Yuniskis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Charlie,
That is why the suggestion of the coat or linen closet, or panty, or
other storage space near the center of the house. Then you don't need
to hide it!

The only closet in the center of the house adjoins the furnace.
So, I'm back to the ductwork issue :-/
Great place to also put your wire distribution center, as well.

I've opted to move that to below the lowest shelf in the
kitchen pantry. A bit hard to get to but at least it is
accessible. Too many wires to try to cram into the back
of a closet (e.g., 48 drops) plus the equipment that goes
with it. :<

House wasn't "designed" with this sort of stuff in mind. :-/
 
D

D Yuniskis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
That's what we have in the office part of the house. Maybe I
misunderstoof and you don't have cathedral ceilings. Then yeah, you

No cathedral ceilings. "Flat roof" -- the sort of style
you would expect in the Southwest. But, the space in question
is similar in construction to cathedral ceiling as the "attic"
is only as thick as the 2x12's used to frame the roof.
could put it into the attic. But: Attics become freaking hot in summer
and ice cold in winter. Not so great for electrolytics.

I am a strong believer in decentralized systems. Especially after rather
bad experiences with X10. Nothing beats something hardwired.

X10's problem was "no brains". OTOH, hard to think of
what *would* be the "smarts" in something like a lightswitch,
etc.

I put all of the functionality in each node/device. The
only thing "centralized" is the user interface. And even
*that* is decentralized (anything that can run the UI code
can act as the UI).

E.g., the irrigation controller doesn't care that the UI is
down -- it knows how to water the plants based on the most
recent scheduling parameters given to it. It can still
communicate with the weather station to determine how to
modify that schedule (e.g., in case of rain). And if it
can't communicate with the weather station, it can still
fall back on the "default" schedule.
My wife hates messes. But I can't have a messy office anyways because I
always serve several clients at the same time. Got to keep all that
strictly separated. So there's coded folders, boxes and so on. In the
evening there's (usually) a clean desk and lab bench surface, all neatly
tucked away.

I don't entertain clients here. Most of my clients have never
met me -- some have never even heard my voice! :> So, as long
as I don't let "others" (guests) into the office, I don't have to
worry about violating any confidentiality agreements. I, long
ago, discovered that guests like to ask questions... *lots* of
them: "What's this? What's it do? Who are you designing it
for?" etc. Easier to just leave the door locked ;-)
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

I'm on a crusade to hide the various bits of electronic
kit that would (currently) otherwise be visible.

AP is something that *rarely* needs to be touched.
I'll PoE power it so I can control that aspect
remotely.

I would *like* to tuck it up into the ceiling
(no attic, here... so "ceiling" is just the
"height" of the ceiling joists). But, I need to
be able to access it *if* something goes south...

Most of the convenient places to hide it (which
would be somewhat accessible afterwards) are
proximate to the HVAC ductwork.

This can't be A Good Thing for RF. :< Any suggestions
on criteria for *best* placement so I don't have to try
it out in N different locations? (e.g., I assume I
would NOT want the ductwork in the expected signal path)

Or, should I just look for an alternative location?

Thx,
--don

WiFi is about 2.5 GHz, it may be possible to use the ductwork as
a low grade high mode waveguide. Dampers built into the grills
may make hash of the idea though.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
No cathedral ceilings. "Flat roof" -- the sort of style
you would expect in the Southwest. But, the space in question
is similar in construction to cathedral ceiling as the "attic"
is only as thick as the 2x12's used to frame the roof.

That is difficult to vent. Plus you'll have to fish the cables and that
can only be done from two directions. Typically blocked by fire stops
somewhere :-(

X10's problem was "no brains". OTOH, hard to think of
what *would* be the "smarts" in something like a lightswitch,
etc.

X10 has two main problems. One is a shitty AM carrier on-off protocol,
the other is even shittier device quality, design bugs and so on.

I put all of the functionality in each node/device. The
only thing "centralized" is the user interface. And even
*that* is decentralized (anything that can run the UI code
can act as the UI).

E.g., the irrigation controller doesn't care that the UI is
down -- it knows how to water the plants based on the most
recent scheduling parameters given to it. It can still
communicate with the weather station to determine how to
modify that schedule (e.g., in case of rain). And if it
can't communicate with the weather station, it can still
fall back on the "default" schedule.

That's ok, as long as the devices work autonomously and can be
programmed locally if needed. That's what we do with X10 nowadays, use
the buttons on the wall switches because half the time X10 doesn't work.

I don't entertain clients here. Most of my clients have never
met me -- some have never even heard my voice! :> So, as long
as I don't let "others" (guests) into the office, I don't have to
worry about violating any confidentiality agreements. I, long
ago, discovered that guests like to ask questions... *lots* of
them: "What's this? What's it do? Who are you designing it
for?" etc. Easier to just leave the door locked ;-)


Similar here, only on occasion are clients here but it does and has to
happen at times. Still, even for myself I like to keep things totally
separated. This can mean 2-3 clean-ups per day, tabula rasa as the
Romans used to say. That way I never have a mix-up of gear, parts or
<gasp> documents. Every client has a code and it's on everything. Only I
and the client know it so if I get hit by a truck things aren't lost.
 
D

D Yuniskis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Joerg,
That is difficult to vent.

Already vented. Part of the (wacky) way homes are constructed, here.
Openings on each end of each "space" (between joists). In theory,
air flows in one end and out the other. Probably helped by convection
along the way (the natural pitch of the roof)
Plus you'll have to fish the cables and that
can only be done from two directions. Typically blocked by fire stops
somewhere :-(

Firestops only in the walls -- prevent the "chimney" effect of the
spaces between studs carrying a fire into the "ceiling".

I've had no problem running wires so far. All the drops for
the audio clients, etc.

I think I may try the roof (outside the house). That will
give me much more flexibility in siting the device (and, I can
MOVE it!!) as well as better coverage in the neighborhood.
(I'd like to cover my "walking route" which would be about a
3/4 mi radius)
X10 has two main problems. One is a shitty AM carrier on-off protocol,

Well, the transmission protocol could have been enhanced with
some brains on each end. But, they opted for "cheap" :-/
the other is even shittier device quality, design bugs and so on.

Yup. I am at a loss as to how I will eventually deal with
controlling AC loads (and still comply with local codes).
Not many options out there that are easily retrofitted.
That's ok, as long as the devices work autonomously and can be
programmed locally if needed. That's what we do with X10 nowadays, use
the buttons on the wall switches because half the time X10 doesn't work.

The only way to "program" (lets say "configure" to differentiate
from software updates) them is via network interface. I.e.,
*something* has to be able to talk to them in order to tell
them to behave differently. Whether that is a PC running
a client application or a server doing similarly.

The point was to make them smart enough that they can do
their "typical" routine without intervention. And, to
define "typical" in such a way that LONG "UI dropouts"
are tolerated. So, instead of thermostat maintaining
*a* set temperature (and having something "external" tell
it how to adjust that over the course of a day), you tell
the thermostat how to handle a typical workload and never
need to talk to it again (unless you want to redefine that
workload/schedule)
Similar here, only on occasion are clients here but it does and has to
happen at times. Still, even for myself I like to keep things totally
separated. This can mean 2-3 clean-ups per day, tabula rasa as the
Romans used to say. That way I never have a mix-up of gear, parts or
<gasp> documents. Every client has a code and it's on everything. Only I
and the client know it so if I get hit by a truck things aren't lost.

The projects I work on probably tend to be much longer time scales
(many months to a year-or-two). And, I tend to only work on
one project of a particular type at a time. E.g., design a
circuit for client A; write code for client B; prepare documentation
for client C; etc. Makes it easy to keep things separate (in my
head).

That's the problem with software -- you can design a circuit
in a WEEK for which it will take you a YEAR to craft the code.
(actually, writing the code isn't the problem -- typically 20%
of the effort; usually the specifications and documentation are
the hassle -- as well as the tedium!)

The only time things get truly messy is if I have to fiddle with
a prototype (some of these are very large and might need to
be staged out in the garage, etc.). And, in those cases, I
definitely *don't* want things "cleaned up" each day or I'll
spend forever cleaning and setting back up each day! :-/

(sort of like rebuilding an engine in a car... if you had
to put everything away at the end of each day, you'd get
very little *done*!)
 
New houses around here come with a wiring closet much like you'd find
in a high rise office building. All the coax, alarm system,
telephone, CAT-5 and cable-TV all come to a central location.

This house is like that, but the built in bookshelves in the great room is a
better location for the router. Unfortunately, the UTP from the wiring closet
to the bookshelf is open. :-(

Is there a way to hook a LAN capable printer (HP2015dn) in wirelessly? I'd
like to share it between computers.
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Charlie E. said:
That is why the suggestion of the coat or linen closet, or panty, or
^^^^^
Oooh, how many APs can you fit into there? Kinky.

Tim
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
This house is like that, but the built in bookshelves in the great room is a
better location for the router. Unfortunately, the UTP from the wiring closet
to the bookshelf is open. :-(

Is there a way to hook a LAN capable printer (HP2015dn) in wirelessly? I'd
like to share it between computers.


This one lets you print wirelessly but connects to the USB port of a
printer (which yours has AFAIR):

http://www.amazon.com/Hawking-Technology-HWPS1UG-Wireless-G-Server/dp/B0001R03XG

Many other mfgs as well. There are also WLAN-to-LAN gizmos but I don't
remember where I've seen that.
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Charlie,


The only closet in the center of the house adjoins the furnace.
So, I'm back to the ductwork issue :-/


I've opted to move that to below the lowest shelf in the
kitchen pantry. A bit hard to get to but at least it is
accessible. Too many wires to try to cram into the back
of a closet (e.g., 48 drops) plus the equipment that goes
with it. :<

House wasn't "designed" with this sort of stuff in mind. :-/

Even current ones are not often designed with network in mind.
 
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