Conclusive physical evidence for AWG?

B

bw

Jan 1, 1970
0
The upper limit is a "brick wall"

Wrong. There are a couple of global extinctions where the global
temperatures got high enough to kill off the majority of land animals
- not just individuals but whole species and genera.

Those were meteor impacts.

In one case the proximal cause seems to have been massive volcanic
activity going through coal beds that put a lot of carbon dioxide into
the atmosphere - it doesn't seem to have raised CO2 levels as fas as
we are doing, but it went on for long enough to thoroughly wreck the
biosphere.

Any scientific citations for this fantasy??
I thought not, massive volcanic eruptions are always global cooling events,
without exception.

This is a pointless paragraph, you should stick to science.
Humans have always adapted to any environmental changes, it's one of our
defining characteristics.

Here's hoping we have enough sense to adapt to the current
environmental change by slwoing down our contribution, rather than
having to live with the consequences.

I don't care what you think. You will never be a judge my behavior, until
you live in a yurt or teepee and walk to work.
I always live near work and ride bicycles. If you want to change the
environment, stop breathing.
 
R

Raveninghorde

Jan 1, 1970
0
4.8% is claimed and frequently misrepresented as 4.8% of UK energy
requirements when it is actually 4.8% of electrical requirement and more
like 0.6% of overall energy requirement.

About the same capacity as one medium sized nuke and probably 5 times more
expensive.

Graph here shows UK shows electricity demand peaking at 57GW in the
last 7 days:

http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Realtime/Demand/Demand8.htm


Wikipedia shows scheme generating 15GW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Barrage

This is well over 20% of peak electrical demand in the UK.

Wher did you get 0.6% from?
 
R

Raveninghorde

Jan 1, 1970
0
If your paper is correct. But it refers to magnetic activity, and says
nothing about the heat outpu, which does vary - very slightly - with
sunspot number, but not nearly enough to have any pereceptible effect
on global temperature.


In your opinion, unsupported by anything in the paper you cite.


If you didn't have a consistent history of misunderstanding of the
material you post, I'd accuse you of lying.

As it is, you have just illustrated, once again, that you don't know
what you are talking about.

Since you deny the medieval warm period and the little ice age you
will also deny the cooling of the Dalton minimum then I can understand
why you snipped this bit:

The first of these oscillations may even turn out to be as strongly
negative as around 1810, in which case a short Grand Minimum similar
to the Dalton one might develop.
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
In <[email protected]>,
Who cares what the lunatic fringe of the Green movement thinks?


Until they learn to do better. It is called evolution in action -
perfectly green.


As is pretty much everything else in the modern world. Chemists - and
I've got a Ph.D. in the subject - do know how to keep nasty chemicals
out of the environment. Some cheap-skate manufacturers do try and save
money by neglecting to implement the - not very expensive - measures
involved, but that might justify more inspectors, nt a ban on
manufacturing solar cells.


Only the very lunatic fringe.


It is also an excellent source of plutonium - which is one of the
reasons the French like them so much, and a worrying source of long-
lived high level radioactive waste. Even perfectly sane greenies have
legitimate anxieties about getting rid of the waste.

I'm no greenie, but I've still got reservations about nuclear waste.

There are solutions for nuclear waste. One is to dump it in a salt
dome, such as one that used to have oil but had the oil pumped out. Those
have been stable long enough to hold oil formed many million years ago.

Once the borehole is plugged up with concrete over most of its depth,
security requirements should be minimal. Redrilling into the salt dome
would be visible to surveillance satellites.

I also think that dumping it into a depleted uranium mine would be OK,
since uranium stayed there safely for tens or hundreds of millions of
years.

It appears to me that the main barriers are political. There are the
NIMBYs, and also anti-nukers who don't want a solution for waste disposal
since a solution would enable more nuclear power.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
N

nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Raveninghorde said:
Graph here shows UK shows electricity demand peaking at 57GW in the
last 7 days:

http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Realtime/Demand/Demand8.htm


Wikipedia shows scheme generating 15GW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Barrage

This is well over 20% of peak electrical demand in the UK.

WTF does peak power have to do with anything? If they let all the water
piss out at once it could supply 100% of peak demand and flog some to
France as well (for about 10 minutes).

There are at least 10 proposed schemes, the most cost effective of the
large scale schemes claims to generate 17TWh pa at a claimed cost of $25bn.
France reckons it can build 3GW nukes (good for around 21TWh pa?) for about
$4.1bn.

I have rather more faith in the claimed output, cost, and reliability of
nukes than an enormous theoretical tidal generation scheme the like of
which has never been constructed.

Besides tidal generation schemes are just sapping kinetic energy from the
earth and moon, you will all be sorry when midday lasts for 6 hours or the
moon comes hurtling towards us :).
--
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Temperature is warmer during shorter cycles. It's an inverse affect.

Cycle 23 wich has just finished is something like 13 years long. Cycle
24 is off to a very slow start and may be even longer.

So why should planets be warming now rather than cooling? Especially
Mars, which has no detected bodies of water and icecaps being of CO2 and
mere millimeters thick? Mars should have surface temperature following
4th root of solar output closely!

(Mars does indeed have barely enough atmosphere to have dust storms, and
a positive feedback mechanism for amount of dust storm activity and
related temperature trends. Deviation from previous long term average
tends to reinforce itself. That is why Mars gets into its own warming and
cooling trends lasting a few Martian years, and those are almost twice as
long as Earth years.)

Meanwhile, Hansen did acknowledge the solar cycle and did say that solar
dimming accompanied by weakening of sunspot cycles in the first 3 decades
of this century would offset roughly 7 years of CO2 increase (at recent
rate of CO2 increase).

Also, I checked more into the Multidecadal Oscillation (60-65 year
period). It turns out to be called the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation
(AMO) and its main index is some composite of North Atlantic sea surface
temperature. It is known to have some positive correlation with global
surface temperature, so the index is for that whatever composite North
Atlantic temperature being with respect to global surface temperature.
Meanwhile, I do see increased El Nino activity (which warms the surface
and lower troposphere) when AMO is in its upswing (most recently the 1983
to 1998 period). It appears to me that central and eastern USA tend to
have more heatwave activity when AMO is "upswinging while high" (1931-1936
and 1988-1995). I do see general trend of global temperature having
positive correlation with AMO and slightly leading AMO (with lead likely
due to El Nino uptick that I suspect is related somehow).

AMO being high probably tends to some extent to make the Arctic warmer
at the expense of the Antarctic. From a few years ago to a decade or two
from now, expect Arctic sea ice to run low even in comparison to whatever
would be typical for current global temperature and current Antarctic sea
ice level.

With both weakening of the sunspot cycle and effect of AMO (or cyclic El
Nino uptick that has had correlation in the past century) on global
temperature likely to favor cooling until maybe 2030 or 2035 or so, I
consider it a serious warning sign if the globe manages to warm at all
from mid-first-decade-of-21st-century to then.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
An engineer is supposed to have an inquisitive mind and question
unproven theories. Leftist weenies have neither attribute. Their
behavior is of a religious nature.

Thus, like all religious nutcases, they should be culled out and
disposed of.

...Jim Thompson

One thing that has always puzzled me is how so many people trained in
testable reality in their professional lives can go for untestable
dogma in other parts of their lives. The internal inconsistency must
leave them somewhat psychotic.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
One thing that has always puzzled me is how so many people trained in
testable reality in their professional lives can go for untestable
dogma in other parts of their lives. The internal inconsistency must
leave them somewhat psychotic.
Slowman, anyone?
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Raveninghorde wrote: said:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 06:17:42 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (D.K.) said:



We've just been through a grand solar maximum with the sun
hyperactive. The insolation has been high and fairly constant.

That "grand solar maximum" looks like 3 sunspot cycles long in terms of
irradiance, as in watts per square meter at 1 A.U. from Sun. The Sun has
not brightened over the past 3 11-or-so year sunspot cycles, so warming on
Mars is either selective reporting or unrelated to what the Sun is doing.
The sun is now going to take a break. And it will be colder.

<SNIP forecast of the Sun dimming soon starting close to now and maybe
doing so for 60-100 years>

Hansen of NASA's GISS acknowledged that the sun is starting a dimming
phase, and predicted that warming effect of CO2 increase would be slowed
by 7 years as a result.
There is also the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (observed mainly in
the North Atlantic) and more-global phenomena that have had possitive
correlation for over 1 cycle of that, such as uptick/downtick of El Nino
activity (upticking when AMO is on upswing). With upswing in those areas
being recent past, the world should cool over the next 20-25 or so years
if there is no AGW.

If over the next couple decades global surface and lower troposphere
temperatures manage to hold onto what they rose to in the decade that is
about to end when the world should be cooling, then consider that to be a
warning sign of what will come once we hit the next upswing of the AMO
(or of El Nino activity that has had positive correlation with leading
in the past century or so) and of solar activity.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Raveninghorde wrote: said:
Since you deny the medieval warm period and the little ice age you
will also deny the cooling of the Dalton minimum then I can understand
why you snipped this bit:

The first of these oscillations may even turn out to be as strongly
negative as around 1810, in which case a short Grand Minimum similar
to the Dalton one might develop.

My take is that I concede that Loehle has somewhat of a better take on
the MWP and the LIA, due to natural selection getting trees to adapt to
global temperature changes taking a couple or a few centuries to
accomplish. Tree ring records may smooth out to some extent or
another global temperature changes taking a couple to a few centuries to
accomplish while exposing more rapid global temperature changes such as
the "blade of the hockey stick".

However, Loehle in his "corrected global temperature reconstruction"
(in the second part of the usual cite having two publications by Loehle)
only claims global temperature reconstruction at and into the past from
1925. Splice that onto any of the 3 major determinations of global
surface temperature (with smoothing of at least 5 years) at any year from
1880 to 1925 (when all existed) or even at any year from 1850 to 1925
(only HadCRUT goes back from 1880, does so to 1850). The result I see:
Past 10 years got warmer than height of MWP!

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
And in the UK the greenies are fighting the Severn Barrage that would
generate 20% of our electricity.

Greenies want us back in the stone age.

Almost right, they want everybody but themselves in the stone age.
There is not an honest Toohey among them.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
bw said:
ALL??? Obviously not, the fossil fuel burning is a fraction of the total
increase.

It is close to twice the total increase - about half the carbon dioxide
we inject into the atmopshere ends up in the oceans.
We've burned enough fossil carbon to have produced a detectable
decrease in the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere, and the
figure ties up with waht the accountatns tells us about the mass
of fossil carbon being burned around the world, and the changing
carbon isotope ratio's in atmospheric carbon dioxide
The amount of the atmospheric CO2 due to humans is less than 10 percent of
the total, the carbon cycle is massively larger than you imply.

Not "less than10%" but 38%. Up from 280 ppm before
the Industrial Revolution to 386 ppm at the moment
The rest of your post is a regurgitation of hysterical special interest
psychosis. I doubt you understand any of the scientific arguments.

Psychotics are out of touch with reality. The figures you have produced are
wrong, which makes you the one more likely to be psychotic.

And you don't seem to know the scientific data, let alone the
scientific arguments.
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
No. He just was allowed more power over people. We don't allow
greenies to have that much power over us. If we did they would
wield that power in a way that makes Pol Pot look like a piker.
Nice understatement. Some of them are real earth firsters who would
extinguish humankind.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
bw said:
Those were meteor impacts.

The asteroid impact that killed off the dinosaurs 65 million years ago
seems to have been the only one that casued a global extinction
In one case the proximal cause seems to have been massive volcanic
activity going through coal beds that put a lot of carbon dioxide into
the atmosphere - it doesn't seem to have raised CO2 levels as fast as
we are doing, but it went on for long enough to thoroughly wreck the
biosphere.

Any scientific citations for this fantasy??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian–Triassic_extinction_event

You can also look up Tony Hallams book "Catastophes and Lesser
Calamities: The Causes of Mass Extinctions"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Hallam

or Douglas H. Erwin's "Extinction: How Life on Earth Nearly Ended
250 million years ago" ISBN 978-0-691-13628-8.

I've got Tony Hallams book too, but it isn't handy.

If you got enthusiastic you could look up their peer-reviewed
scientific papers, but the books are more accessible.
I thought not,
Wrongly

massive volcanic eruptions are always global cooling events, without
exception.

The eruptions that produced the Siberian Traps were massive lava flows

http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/Palaeofiles/Permian/SiberianTraps.html

that produced not only the intial cooling you refer to, caused by the
dust injected into the atmosphere, but also subsequent global warming
produced by the carbon dioxide, aided and abbetted at some stage by
what seems to have been at least one massive emission of methane.
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
Actually the egg heads are presently saying something more along the
lines of "don't you think it would be a good idea to travel at a speed
where you can stop in the distance that you can see to be clear".

And Exxon and its lying PR team are saying, no, no keep the pedal to the
metal and scream if you want to go faster. It will all end in tears.


Shades of the Italian job I expect.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Too bad that the persons you designate as "egg heads" are working with
completely blocking eye coverage. Most anyone that can see, can see
that there is neither a wide clear straight road nor a brick wall. The
road to the future is curvy, poorly delineated to not at all,
marginally paved at best, and hugely occluded by controversy. But the
road will be made, step by step, and humanity will travel along it.
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
Which is funnier, using Wiki to prove something,
using a Twilight Zone episode to argue for something,
or a Wiki about a TZ episode used as argument?

Quit your job and walk around with a sandwich board
sign saying "The End Is Near!". LOL

You intentionally missed the satire and irony, right??
 
B

bw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill Sloman said:
It is close to twice the total increase - about half the carbon dioxide
we inject into the atmopshere ends up in the oceans.
We've burned enough fossil carbon to have produced a detectable
decrease in the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere, and the
figure ties up with waht the accountatns tells us about the mass
of fossil carbon being burned around the world, and the changing
carbon isotope ratio's in atmospheric carbon dioxide


Not "less than10%" but 38%. Up from 280 ppm before
the Industrial Revolution to 386 ppm at the moment

You are massively confused. I'm discussing planetary carbon cycle.
Total atmosphere contains 2400 gigatonnes, about 1/6 annual turnover means
400 gigatonnes of CO2 is exchanged from atmosphere to (and from) the
surface, including human sources. Total annual anthropogenic CO2 is 40
gigatonnes per year at most, including land use changes, fossil fuel is
less. Therefore, 10 percent of the total annual CO2 exchange is
anthropogenic.
These numbers are easily verified from any basic climate source.
Psychotics are out of touch with reality. The figures you have produced
are
wrong, which makes you the one more likely to be psychotic.

And you don't seem to know the scientific data, let alone the
scientific arguments.

I don't care what your opinions are, I could easily show data that support
the null hypothesis that there is no difference in surface temperature from
1908 to 2008. See alt. global warming newsgroup.
 
J

Jamie

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/Palaeofiles/Permian/SiberianTraps.html

that produced not only the intial cooling you refer to, caused by the
dust injected into the atmosphere, but also subsequent global warming
produced by the carbon dioxide, aided and abbetted at some stage by
what seems to have been at least one massive emission of methane.

I know some people that fit that description after a good meal
at the chinese buffet restaurant.


http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"
 
Top