DIY is a rocky road.

C

Charles Schuler

Jan 1, 1970
0
Be prepared before you venture into the "Do it yourself" security system
arena. I think it means "Do In Yourself."

The manuals SUCK!
 
N

Nick Markowitz

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a whole collection of them in my basement i have taken out and
replaced with professional systems becuse people were disgusted by the poor
DIY performance
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep they do, and you have to speak Alarmish, a sub-dialect of 'Glish.
They're not written for DIYers.


| Be prepared before you venture into the "Do it yourself" security system
| arena. I think it means "Do In Yourself."
|
| The manuals SUCK!
|
|
 
C

Charles Schuler

Jan 1, 1970
0
Crash Gordon said:
Yep they do, and you have to speak Alarmish, a sub-dialect of 'Glish.
They're not written for DIYers.

They are not written for anybody who knows how to read and also trusts what
they read:

Installer code
User code
Default code
Master code

In the manuals that I am trying to read, all of the above appear with no
definitions and are obviously used inappropriately, in some cases. Trying
to program something as simple as time and date becomes a mind-bending
experience. Not because it needs to be ... it's because the hacks who wrote
the manuals don't themselves understand the terms that they are using, or
perhaps are semi-clever agents dedicated to the demise of DIYs.

I used to think this sort of thing was only endemic among offshore products
designed and built by other than English speaking engineers. Now, I have a
whole new perspective on this issue.

I know, I know ... this "stuff" is intended for professional installers and
they just enjoy the hell out of DIYs hanging out here, twisting in the wind.
My tenacity will prevail, in any case.

Maybe I'll put up a website and further illuminate this extremely dark
corridor of consumer electronics in the good ole yew ess of aay.
 
R

R.H.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sir, following are some easy to understand definitions of the four code
types you mention:

Installer code

This is the code which is used only to enter "low level programming". This
is the programming which defines how your panel operates, communicates, and
is used also to define how each type of zone is to operate (instant,
entry/exit, follow etc). In summary, this code is used by the system
installer to change the default panel settings to ones which define in total
how your alarm panel works. This code is always changed by your installing
company to one of their own, in order to limit those who may access the
settings in your panel which can affect it's ability to function properly.

User code

This is a code which is used to arm and disarm the system. It may or may not
be set up to do other things like bypass certain zones on the system.

Default Code

This usually refers to the code that is hard programmed in to the panel when
it is either new off the shelf, or has been hardware defaulted back to
factory specifications. It often is identical to the model of the panel in
question, but not always.

Master code

This is the code which has a higher function than the other user codes. It
can arm and disarm the system AND is the code that you MUST use to enter
user level programming for the purposes of adding, deleting or simply
changing the balance of the user codes.

Those who write the manuals are usually engineering or technical types, and
often the end results reflect their "mind think". Writing user manuals is a
distinct skill that a lot of companies gloss over. Poorly written manuals
are the result !!

Hope that helps

R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com


Charles Schuler said:
They are not written for anybody who knows how to read and also trusts
what they read:

Installer code
User code
Default code
Master code

In the manuals that I am trying to read, all of the above appear with no
definitions and are obviously used inappropriately, in some cases. Trying
to program something as simple as time and date becomes a mind-bending
experience. Not because it needs to be ... it's because the hacks who
wrote the manuals don't themselves understand the terms that they are
using, or perhaps are semi-clever agents dedicated to the demise of DIYs.

I used to think this sort of thing was only endemic among offshore
products designed and built by other than English speaking engineers.
Now, I have a whole new perspective on this issue.

I know, I know ... this "stuff" is intended for professional installers
and they just enjoy the hell out of DIYs hanging out here, twisting in the
wind. My tenacity will prevail, in any case.

Maybe I'll put up a website and further illuminate this extremely dark
corridor of consumer electronics in the good ole yew ess of aay.


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
I agree. I've been doing this stuff for almost 25 years and sometimes I have
to read the manual over and over again...and then STILL have to call tech
support --- who speak with a decidely off-shore accent. Its frustrating at
times, but its good when you get it right.


|
| | > Yep they do, and you have to speak Alarmish, a sub-dialect of 'Glish.
| > They're not written for DIYers.
|
| They are not written for anybody who knows how to read and also trusts
what
| they read:
|
| Installer code
| User code
| Default code
| Master code
|
| In the manuals that I am trying to read, all of the above appear with no
| definitions and are obviously used inappropriately, in some cases. Trying
| to program something as simple as time and date becomes a mind-bending
| experience. Not because it needs to be ... it's because the hacks who
wrote
| the manuals don't themselves understand the terms that they are using, or
| perhaps are semi-clever agents dedicated to the demise of DIYs.
|
| I used to think this sort of thing was only endemic among offshore
products
| designed and built by other than English speaking engineers. Now, I have
a
| whole new perspective on this issue.
|
| I know, I know ... this "stuff" is intended for professional installers
and
| they just enjoy the hell out of DIYs hanging out here, twisting in the
wind.
| My tenacity will prevail, in any case.
|
| Maybe I'll put up a website and further illuminate this extremely dark
| corridor of consumer electronics in the good ole yew ess of aay.
|
|
 
M

Mark Leuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Crash Gordon said:
I agree. I've been doing this stuff for almost 25 years and sometimes I have
to read the manual over and over again...and then STILL have to call tech
support --- who speak with a decidely off-shore accent. Its frustrating at
times, but its good when you get it right.

If you are talking about Ademco that off-shore accent is Tennesee, I can
understand the confusion :)
 
D

Doug L

Jan 1, 1970
0
For the most part the installation manuals are written for their main
customer base which is the professional installer and as such they assume
that the reader has a basic understanding of alarm systems and of the
terminology used in the industry, its not a conspiracy to cause the demise
of DIYs or anything other that the desire to tailor the manual to their
target audience. I personally don't want to read a beginners guide to alarm
systems when I read the an installation manual any more than an auto
mechanic wants to read a Dummy's Guide to Automobile Engines when all he
wants to know is the torque wrench figures for the main bearings or how far
to advance the timing.


Doug L
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
There's Press Option #2 now...and they speak english on that one.


|
| | > I agree. I've been doing this stuff for almost 25 years and sometimes I
| have
| > to read the manual over and over again...and then STILL have to call
tech
| > support --- who speak with a decidely off-shore accent. Its frustrating
at
| > times, but its good when you get it right.
|
| If you are talking about Ademco that off-shore accent is Tennesee, I can
| understand the confusion :)
|
|
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ademco is not a large percentage of my installs...and ya know I've never
really had problems with their stuff..at least the few models that I do use.

But having said that...at least Ademco stuff easier to program than NappyKO
:)

As far as programming goes though, nothing beats DMP for ease of
programming...sheesh it's like using an ATM machine just answer questions in
english. Panel of choice for this AARP installer.


| That's what you get for installing Ademcrap..... :)) hee hee
|
| | >I agree. I've been doing this stuff for almost 25 years and sometimes I
| >have
| > to read the manual over and over again...and then STILL have to call
tech
| > support --- who speak with a decidely off-shore accent. Its frustrating
at
| > times, but its good when you get it right.
| >
| >
| > | > |
| > | | > | > Yep they do, and you have to speak Alarmish, a sub-dialect of
'Glish.
| > | > They're not written for DIYers.
| > |
| > | They are not written for anybody who knows how to read and also trusts
| > what
| > | they read:
| > |
| > | Installer code
| > | User code
| > | Default code
| > | Master code
| > |
| > | In the manuals that I am trying to read, all of the above appear with
no
| > | definitions and are obviously used inappropriately, in some cases.
| > Trying
| > | to program something as simple as time and date becomes a mind-bending
| > | experience. Not because it needs to be ... it's because the hacks who
| > wrote
| > | the manuals don't themselves understand the terms that they are using,
| > or
| > | perhaps are semi-clever agents dedicated to the demise of DIYs.
| > |
| > | I used to think this sort of thing was only endemic among offshore
| > products
| > | designed and built by other than English speaking engineers. Now, I
| > have
| > a
| > | whole new perspective on this issue.
| > |
| > | I know, I know ... this "stuff" is intended for professional
installers
| > and
| > | they just enjoy the hell out of DIYs hanging out here, twisting in the
| > wind.
| > | My tenacity will prevail, in any case.
| > |
| > | Maybe I'll put up a website and further illuminate this extremely dark
| > | corridor of consumer electronics in the good ole yew ess of aay.
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
 
A

Allan Waghalter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ademco might be easier to program, but the Napco is so much more versatile.
More features make for more programming. As for me, I would rather be able
to configure a panel the way my customer wants to use it than be held to a
more restricted panel.
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Im a little guy...but also an old timer. Could be there are too many dmp
dealers in your particular area too...they try not to overcrowd and area -
sorta a protected area in a very loose sense.


| Hi Crash,
|
| You're right, Napco is hard to program... But, it will do just about
| anything I want it to, and the price is reasonable... I'd like to try DMP,
| but they don't sell to the little guy here in Northern CA, you have to be
a
| Big Co....
|
| Regards,
| Russ
|
| | > Ademco is not a large percentage of my installs...and ya know I've never
| > really had problems with their stuff..at least the few models that I do
| > use.
| >
| > But having said that...at least Ademco stuff easier to program than
| > NappyKO
| > :)
| >
| > As far as programming goes though, nothing beats DMP for ease of
| > programming...sheesh it's like using an ATM machine just answer
questions
| > in
| > english. Panel of choice for this AARP installer.
| >
| >
| > | > | That's what you get for installing Ademcrap..... :)) hee hee
| > |
| > | | > | >I agree. I've been doing this stuff for almost 25 years and sometimes
I
| > | >have
| > | > to read the manual over and over again...and then STILL have to call
| > tech
| > | > support --- who speak with a decidely off-shore accent. Its
| > frustrating
| > at
| > | > times, but its good when you get it right.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > | > | > |
| > | > | | > | > | > Yep they do, and you have to speak Alarmish, a sub-dialect of
| > 'Glish.
| > | > | > They're not written for DIYers.
| > | > |
| > | > | They are not written for anybody who knows how to read and also
| > trusts
| > | > what
| > | > | they read:
| > | > |
| > | > | Installer code
| > | > | User code
| > | > | Default code
| > | > | Master code
| > | > |
| > | > | In the manuals that I am trying to read, all of the above appear
| > with
| > no
| > | > | definitions and are obviously used inappropriately, in some cases.
| > | > Trying
| > | > | to program something as simple as time and date becomes a
| > mind-bending
| > | > | experience. Not because it needs to be ... it's because the hacks
| > who
| > | > wrote
| > | > | the manuals don't themselves understand the terms that they are
| > using,
| > | > or
| > | > | perhaps are semi-clever agents dedicated to the demise of DIYs.
| > | > |
| > | > | I used to think this sort of thing was only endemic among offshore
| > | > products
| > | > | designed and built by other than English speaking engineers. Now,
I
| > | > have
| > | > a
| > | > | whole new perspective on this issue.
| > | > |
| > | > | I know, I know ... this "stuff" is intended for professional
| > installers
| > | > and
| > | > | they just enjoy the hell out of DIYs hanging out here, twisting in
| > the
| > | > wind.
| > | > | My tenacity will prevail, in any case.
| > | > |
| > | > | Maybe I'll put up a website and further illuminate this extremely
| > dark
| > | > | corridor of consumer electronics in the good ole yew ess of aay.
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
 
C

Charles Schuler

Jan 1, 1970
0
R.H.Campbell said:
Sir, following are some easy to understand definitions of the four code
types you mention:
SNIP

Hope that helps

It certainly does. I printed it. Wish I had that a week ago! Thanks a
bunch!
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Like what features?


| Ademco might be easier to program, but the Napco is so much more
versatile.
| More features make for more programming. As for me, I would rather be
able
| to configure a panel the way my customer wants to use it than be held to a
| more restricted panel.
|
| | > Ademco is not a large percentage of my installs...and ya know I've never
| > really had problems with their stuff..at least the few models that I do
| > use.
| >
| > But having said that...at least Ademco stuff easier to program than
| > NappyKO
| > :)
| >
| > As far as programming goes though, nothing beats DMP for ease of
| > programming...sheesh it's like using an ATM machine just answer
questions
| > in
| > english. Panel of choice for this AARP installer.
| >
| >
| > | > | That's what you get for installing Ademcrap..... :)) hee hee
| > |
| > | | > | >I agree. I've been doing this stuff for almost 25 years and sometimes
I
| > | >have
| > | > to read the manual over and over again...and then STILL have to call
| > tech
| > | > support --- who speak with a decidely off-shore accent. Its
| > frustrating
| > at
| > | > times, but its good when you get it right.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > | > | > |
| > | > | | > | > | > Yep they do, and you have to speak Alarmish, a sub-dialect of
| > 'Glish.
| > | > | > They're not written for DIYers.
| > | > |
| > | > | They are not written for anybody who knows how to read and also
| > trusts
| > | > what
| > | > | they read:
| > | > |
| > | > | Installer code
| > | > | User code
| > | > | Default code
| > | > | Master code
| > | > |
| > | > | In the manuals that I am trying to read, all of the above appear
| > with
| > no
| > | > | definitions and are obviously used inappropriately, in some cases.
| > | > Trying
| > | > | to program something as simple as time and date becomes a
| > mind-bending
| > | > | experience. Not because it needs to be ... it's because the hacks
| > who
| > | > wrote
| > | > | the manuals don't themselves understand the terms that they are
| > using,
| > | > or
| > | > | perhaps are semi-clever agents dedicated to the demise of DIYs.
| > | > |
| > | > | I used to think this sort of thing was only endemic among offshore
| > | > products
| > | > | designed and built by other than English speaking engineers. Now,
I
| > | > have
| > | > a
| > | > | whole new perspective on this issue.
| > | > |
| > | > | I know, I know ... this "stuff" is intended for professional
| > installers
| > | > and
| > | > | they just enjoy the hell out of DIYs hanging out here, twisting in
| > the
| > | > wind.
| > | > | My tenacity will prevail, in any case.
| > | > |
| > | > | Maybe I'll put up a website and further illuminate this extremely
| > dark
| > | > | corridor of consumer electronics in the good ole yew ess of aay.
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
 
M

Mark Leuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can't think of any, each panel has its own strengths and weaknesses
however Ademco is far easier to program
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm witchya on that. I was just curious as to what Allan meant.
A lot of times clients *think* they want some feature and then end up never
ever never using it.


|I can't think of any, each panel has its own strengths and weaknesses
| however Ademco is far easier to program
|
| | > Like what features?
| >
| >
| > | > | Ademco might be easier to program, but the Napco is so much more
| > versatile.
| > | More features make for more programming. As for me, I would rather be
| > able
| > | to configure a panel the way my customer wants to use it than be held
to
| a
| > | more restricted panel.
| > |
| > | | > | > Ademco is not a large percentage of my installs...and ya know I've
| never
| > | > really had problems with their stuff..at least the few models that I
| do
| > | > use.
| > | >
| > | > But having said that...at least Ademco stuff easier to program than
| > | > NappyKO
| > | > :)
| > | >
| > | > As far as programming goes though, nothing beats DMP for ease of
| > | > programming...sheesh it's like using an ATM machine just answer
| > questions
| > | > in
| > | > english. Panel of choice for this AARP installer.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > | > | > | That's what you get for installing Ademcrap..... :)) hee hee
| > | > |
| > | > | | > | > | >I agree. I've been doing this stuff for almost 25 years and
| sometimes
| > I
| > | > | >have
| > | > | > to read the manual over and over again...and then STILL have to
| call
| > | > tech
| > | > | > support --- who speak with a decidely off-shore accent. Its
| > | > frustrating
| > | > at
| > | > | > times, but its good when you get it right.
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > |
| message
| > | > | > | | > | > | > | > Yep they do, and you have to speak Alarmish, a sub-dialect
of
| > | > 'Glish.
| > | > | > | > They're not written for DIYers.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | They are not written for anybody who knows how to read and
also
| > | > trusts
| > | > | > what
| > | > | > | they read:
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Installer code
| > | > | > | User code
| > | > | > | Default code
| > | > | > | Master code
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | In the manuals that I am trying to read, all of the above
appear
| > | > with
| > | > no
| > | > | > | definitions and are obviously used inappropriately, in some
| cases.
| > | > | > Trying
| > | > | > | to program something as simple as time and date becomes a
| > | > mind-bending
| > | > | > | experience. Not because it needs to be ... it's because the
| hacks
| > | > who
| > | > | > wrote
| > | > | > | the manuals don't themselves understand the terms that they
are
| > | > using,
| > | > | > or
| > | > | > | perhaps are semi-clever agents dedicated to the demise of
DIYs.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | I used to think this sort of thing was only endemic among
| offshore
| > | > | > products
| > | > | > | designed and built by other than English speaking engineers.
| Now,
| > I
| > | > | > have
| > | > | > a
| > | > | > | whole new perspective on this issue.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | I know, I know ... this "stuff" is intended for professional
| > | > installers
| > | > | > and
| > | > | > | they just enjoy the hell out of DIYs hanging out here,
twisting
| in
| > | > the
| > | > | > wind.
| > | > | > | My tenacity will prevail, in any case.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Maybe I'll put up a website and further illuminate this
| extremely
| > | > dark
| > | > | > | corridor of consumer electronics in the good ole yew ess of
aay.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > |
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
Like what features?

Crash,

Napco has 62 zone options, each selectable on a zone by zone
basis. There are also a complete set of partition options,
system wide options, user options, advanced scheduling, remote
control of the system and system control of up to 64 relays, X10
outputs, etc.

Depending on which model you select, Napco offers a lot of power.
Their P9600 is definitely the most configurable alarm panel on
the market.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Welp, since I was talking about Vista 15/20P lets compare the same
size/price panels. I use another brand for my large jobs which goes to 256
zones and 8 partitions - which I'd never switch to another brand.

So lets talk about Napco vs Ademco on the small stuff - and with commonly
requested options.

How many residential users acutally use scheduling? I have close to 3500
systems out there an I don't think 20 of them have scheduling being used.




|> Like what features?
|
| Crash,
|
| Napco has 62 zone options, each selectable on a zone by zone
| basis. There are also a complete set of partition options,
| system wide options, user options, advanced scheduling, remote
| control of the system and system control of up to 64 relays, X10
| outputs, etc.
|
| Depending on which model you select, Napco offers a lot of power.
| Their P9600 is definitely the most configurable alarm panel on
| the market.
|
| --
|
| Regards,
| Robert L Bass
|
| Bass Burglar Alarms
| The Online DIY Store
| http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
|
|
|
 
A

Allan Waghalter

Jan 1, 1970
0
I got busy. Will answer when things slow down a bit...
Allan
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
Welp, since I was talking about Vista 15/20P lets compare the same
size/price panels. I use another brand for my large jobs which goes to 256
zones and 8 partitions - which I'd never switch to another brand.

Napco doesn't have a 48-zone panel, but the closest match would
probably be the Ademco (Honeywell) Vista-20P. Since most users
never reach 32 zones, let alone 48, I think that's a reasonable
comparison.
So lets talk about Napco vs Ademco on the small stuff - and
with commonly requested options.

How many residential users acutally use scheduling?

A lot of that depends more on the installer than one might
imagine. For example, because I'm so familiar with Napco's
capabilities, I tend to implement more of those features. I used
scheduling on most of my installations. When customers were on
vacation I would set their panels to auto-arm all partitions at a
certain time each day in case a caretaker should forget to arm.

I also routinely setup a maid's code for clients who employed
outside help. The code was controlled by scheduling, allowing
the maid access only on her assigned work days.

You only asked about residential jobs, but I programmed almost
every commercial installation to auto-arm 30-60 minutes after the
normal quitting time. On jobs where the office and warehouse or
factory maintained different schedules, I programmed different
auto-arm times each day for each partition.
I have close to 3500 systems out there an I don't think
20 of them have scheduling being used.

Different strokes. I used Napco's advanced features as a sales
tool. Clients would often tell colleagues about the way their
new security system arms itself if they forget, turns on the
sprinklers if there's motion in the garden after dark (really),
etc. I used to get a lot of referrals from those things.

Perhaps you can experiment with some of these things and come up
with some of your own ideas. You might find your business
growing even better than it already is. You never know if
something is going to work for you until you try it.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
Top