[Phil Allison]

"David"

** Yawn - Phils


Clearly Phil, as you are resorting to insults, I know that you are wrong.

** You know very little indeed then - because I reserve insults for folk
who post shite, especially dangerous shite like:

" ... but people need some common sense with electricity. "

Reads just like "... let them eat cake ".

Shame there is not a guillotine waiting for a pigs like you - David.

You really should have finished that Uni course, then you would know that
3 times current, would only result in a 9 times increase in power being
lost by the cables.

** Well - that is cause for a damn good belly laugh !!!!!

If you perhaps studied a tiny bit of basic physics you might find out that
copper has a positive temperature coefficient of resistance. Dissipation is
proportional to I squared times R so the actual dissipation figure is much
higher than 9 times - since R will have increased by 50 % or more.

Shame , Mr Electrical Engineer, shame !!!!!

No. I am fully qualified Engineer and fully licensed Electrical
contractor.

** You should be taken out ands shot for making the blunders you have
posted here.

As I asked before, can you provide a reference for your "fact".

** Which fact was that ?

The one you **agree with** a few lines further down ??

As I stated before which you deleted, the old 1991 wiring rules have
allowed
up to 32A breakers for 10A socket outlets. This is a FACT, in the WIRING
RULES.

** 1991 is only "old " to a kid.

The issue here is basic safety - not your idea of what the stupid rules
say.

While it was common practice to use 16A rewireable fuses with 2.5mm2
cable, this was because it was normally the cheapest legal solution. Also,
the wiring rules treated those cheap plug in breaker the same as
rewireable fuses.

** So my "facts" were correct and you knew it - what a posturing prick
!!!

If you spent more money, and installed a HRC fuse or
proper ciruit breaker,

** What is "improper" about an approved domestic breaker ??

They are rated to break 1500 amps or more - way more than the s/c current
of a domestic outlet.

( I smell a very pongy red herring in the making )

Your wild assumptions are incorrect.

** Not one has been shown to be so far.


OTOH - yours are all looking very shaky.

You don't have a degree or even an
electrical license, and obviously have no idea of the requirements of the
standards.

** While you are a posturing pedant with no fucking idea what electrical
safety is all about.

God save us all from bloody standards goons - the scum of the profession
!!




............ Phil

 

[David]

** Which fact was that ?

The one you **agree with** a few lines further down ??






** So my "facts" were correct and you knew it - what a posturing prick
!!!

Common practice does not make it a rule. Your orignal "fact" was that

Clearly you are wrong, as they have been permitted to be exceed 15A.

If you don't believe me, call the Wiring rules hotline on 1902 920 012,
or email them at [email protected]

** What is "improper" about an approved domestic breaker ??

Plug in beakers where never considered to have a rating greater than that
of rewirable fuse. Breakers wired in were permitted to have a higher
rating for a given wire size.

They are rated to break 1500 amps or more - way more than the s/c current
of a domestic outlet.

The fault current in a domestic installation can exceed 1500A easily. The
normal guidelines for fault current calculations are 10kA at point of
attachment for single domestic installations, and up to 30kA for multiple
dwellings (units). This figure is available from your supplier. This
is why you have HRC service fuses. These protect against low fault current
circuit breakers failing to interrupt the fault current in a short circuit.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David" = over sniping maniac plus cretinous LIAR !!

Common practice does not make it a rule.

** You have not shown that it was not.

Notice use of past tense - arsehole.

Clearly Phil, as you are resorting to insults, I know that you are wrong.

** You know very little indeed then - because I reserve insults for folk
who post shite, especially dangerous shite like:

" ... but people need some common sense with electricity. "

Reads just like "... let them eat cake ".

Shame there is not a guillotine waiting for a pigs like you - David.



You really should have finished that Uni course, then you would know that

3 times current, would only result in a 9 times increase in power being
lost by the cables.

** Well - that is cause for a damn good belly laugh !!!!!

If you perhaps studied a tiny bit of basic physics you might find out that
copper has a positive temperature coefficient of resistance. Dissipation is
proportional to I squared times R so the actual dissipation figure is much
higher than 9 times - since R will have increased by 50 % or more.

Shame , Mr Electrical Engineer, shame !!!!!


** LACK of REPLY NOTED !!!!!!!!!!!!

LACK of interest in human safety NOTED too !!

This DAVID pig is not human.

Plug in beakers where never considered to have a rating greater than that
of rewirable fuse. Breakers wired in were permitted to have a higher
rating for a given wire size.

** You did not answer the question:

" ** What is "improper" about an approved domestic breaker ?? "

The fault current in a domestic installation can exceed 1500A easily.

The normal guidelines for fault current calculations are 10kA at point of
attachment for single domestic installations, and up to 30kA for multiple
dwellings (units).


** Can you read ?

Or do you simply chose not to ??

" They are rated to break 1500 amps or more - way more than the s/c current
of a domestic outlet. "


See the words "domestic outlet " ?????

Ever test one for internal resistance ?????

What did you find ??

You don't have a degree or even an
electrical license, and obviously have no idea of the requirements of the
standards.

** While you are a posturing pedant with no fucking idea what electrical
safety is all about.

God save us all from bloody standards goons - the scum of the profession
!!





............ Phil

 

[David]

** You have not shown that it was not.

Yes I have. I quoted the relevant AS standard, which clearly allows up to
32A breakers for domestic GPOs. You have responded with nothing but
insults.

** You did not answer the question:

" ** What is "improper" about an approved domestic breaker ?? "

I never called them improper.

The normal guidelines for fault current calculations are 10kA at point of
attachment for single domestic installations, and up to 30kA for multiple
dwellings (units).


** Can you read ?

Or do you simply chose not to ??

" They are rated to break 1500 amps or more - way more than the s/c current
of a domestic outlet. "


See the words "domestic outlet " ?????

Ever test one for internal resistance ?????

What did you find ??

Socket outlets have very low resistance, it is the wiring which has the
significant resistance.

The circuit breaker/fuse has to proctect against short circuits anywhere
on the circuit, not just at the socket outlet. If a rat chews through
the cable just near the switch board, or if the socket outlet is close to
switch board, the fault current can be much higher than 1500 Amps.

That is why proper circuit breakers, from suppliers like Clipsal have
fault capacity of 6kA and 10kA.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

** Not good enough arsehole - try again

"David" = over sniping maniac plus cretinous LIAR !!

Common practice does not make it a rule.

** You have not shown that it was not.

Notice use of past tense - arsehole.

Clearly Phil, as you are resorting to insults, I know that you are wrong.

** You know very little indeed then - because I reserve insults for folk
who post shite, especially dangerous shite like:

" ... but people need some common sense with electricity. "

Reads just like "... let them eat cake ".

Shame there is not a guillotine waiting for a pigs like you - David.



You really should have finished that Uni course, then you would know that

3 times current, would only result in a 9 times increase in power being
lost by the cables.

** Well - that is cause for a damn good belly laugh !!!!!

If you perhaps studied a tiny bit of basic physics you might find out that
copper has a positive temperature coefficient of resistance. Dissipation is
proportional to I squared times R so the actual dissipation figure is much
higher than 9 times - since R will have increased by 50 % or more.

Shame , Mr Electrical Engineer, shame !!!!!


** LACK of REPLY NOTED !!!!!!!!!!!!

LACK of interest in human safety NOTED too !!

This DAVID pig is not human.

Plug in beakers where never considered to have a rating greater than that
of rewirable fuse. Breakers wired in were permitted to have a higher
rating for a given wire size.

** You did not answer the question:

" ** What is "improper" about an approved domestic breaker ?? "

The fault current in a domestic installation can exceed 1500A easily.

The normal guidelines for fault current calculations are 10kA at point of
attachment for single domestic installations, and up to 30kA for multiple
dwellings (units).


** Can you read ?

Or do you simply chose not to ??

" They are rated to break 1500 amps or more - way more than the s/c current
of a domestic outlet. "

See the words "domestic outlet " ?????

Ever test one for internal resistance ?????

What did you find ??

You don't have a degree or even an
electrical license, and obviously have no idea of the requirements of the
standards.

** While you are a posturing pedant with no fucking idea what electrical
safety is all about.

God save us all from bloody standards goons - the scum of the profession
!!





............ Phil

 

[David, not to be confused with the other David.]

** No faulty electrical item is needed to create a dangerous situation -
merely the use of a common extension lead ( possibly 7.5 amp rated) with a
simple double adaptor on the end supplying two 10 amp loads, ie two 2400
watt room heaters.

Someone is playing funny buggers with the rules here - over fusing a
domestic circuit is inherently dangerous and one of the main causes of
domestic fires.



............... Phil

No argument with the above and the 'playing funny buggers' started occuring
when the standards groups responsible for the 'wiring rules' diverged from the
product safety groups. There is almost no co-ordination between the groups
looking at what makes an installation safe and what makes a product safe.
Suitable, sensible requirements for each side of the power point should be
fine, but more and more the push for the lowest cost solution (rather than the
lowest risk) pays mere lip service to actually providing safe outcomes.

 

[Phil Allison]

"David, not to be confused with the other David."


** A wise move indeed !

No argument with the above and the 'playing funny buggers' started
occuring
when the standards groups responsible for the 'wiring rules' diverged from
the
product safety groups. There is almost no co-ordination between the
groups
looking at what makes an installation safe and what makes a product safe.
Suitable, sensible requirements for each side of the power point should be
fine, but more and more the push for the lowest cost solution (rather than
the
lowest risk) pays mere lip service to actually providing safe outcomes.

** Nice to see that someone has a modicum of common sense.

We are ALL in dire straits when the public authorities charged with
protecting the public interest get hijacked by commercial ones instead.

It's a bit of a worry.




............... Phil

 

[David]

Someone is playing funny buggers with the rules here - over fusing a
domestic circuit is inherently dangerous and one of the main causes of
domestic fires.

As usual Phil is plain wrong again, and overfusing is not one of the main
causes of domestic fires. According to the CSIRO Divsion of Building,
Construction and Engineering, the largest numbers of fires ingnited in
domestic dwelling was in the in Kitchen, by leaving cooking unattended,
and overheating cooking oils etc. These fires were not a major source of
fatalities however.

The next most common source of fire, and fatality, was in the bedroom and
lounge room, and the most common source of ignition in these fires was a
cigarette followed by incendiary/suspicious causes.

Oil burners and candles, bedside lamps with incorrect wattage globes
installed, and electric blankets being left on.

Note that both of these causes of electrical fires are by very low wattage
loads, less than 100 Watts, and there is no way that any fuse in the
switch board could protect against a fire in this instance.

Following from this is cloth dryers which have not had there lint filter
cleaned, and drying bras where the underwire gets caught and starts a
fire.


A significant number of electrical fires are caused by DIY electical work,
by unqualified people. Also
caused by leaving irons, stoves, heaters on at night or when the house is
unattended, and running cords under carpets and rugs causing heat to build
up.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"

As usual Phil is plain wrong again,

** **** you - you asinine LIAR !!

and overfusing is not one of the main
causes of domestic fires.

** Errrr - what is the context ??

Errr - electrically caused domestic fires !!!!

Errr - when was your data for ??

The modern era of 15 amp breakers ( not fuse wire) and RCDs ??

Errr - the contentious use of 32 amp fuses on domestic power ccts is
practically unheard of.


PISS OFF FUCKHEAD !!!!!!



.............. Phil

 

[David]

** **** you - you asinine LIAR !!

Admission again that you are wrong Phil.

** Errrr - what is the context ??

Errr - electrically caused domestic fires !!!!

Errr - Where did YOU state electrically caused fires ????? Please read
your post again.

Errr - when was your data for ??
2000


The modern era of 15 amp breakers ( not fuse wire) and RCDs ??

Phil, if you knew anything about wiring, you would know that there is no
such thing as 15 amp breakers, they are actually 16 A.

Errr - the contentious use of 32 amp fuses on domestic power ccts is
practically unheard of.

What is contentious about it? Clearly stated and allowed as per
AS/NZS3000:2000 and AS/NZS3018:2001. If you think it is unsafe I suggest
you write to the Standards Association, and present a safer alternative. I
would like to hear what you would suggest.


David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David = Criminal POS

Phil Allison


Admission again that you are wrong Phil.

** **** you - you asinine LIAR !!

Errr - Where did YOU state electrically caused fires ????? Please read
your post again.

** C O N T E X T - you criminal asshole !!!

2000

** The modern era of 15 amp breakers ( not fuse wire) and RCDs.

Phil, if you knew anything about wiring, you would know that there is no
such thing as 15 amp breakers, they are actually 16 A.

** Another Massive fucking LIE .

Plenty of 15 amp rated ones now and in the past.

What is contentious about it?

** It is the contentious issue here and now - FUCKHEAD .

Criminal pricks like you cause the deaths of many innocent people.

Die very slowly and painfully.



............... Phil

 

[David]

** C O N T E X T - you criminal asshole !!!

Phil - Here is YOUR statement -

" Someone is playing funny buggers with the rules here - over fusing a
domestic circuit is inherently dangerous and one of the main causes of
domestic fires."

Your context is domestic fires, not Electrical fires.

** The modern era of 15 amp breakers ( not fuse wire) and RCDs.

The era of 20 and 25A (and 32A breakers) actually.

** Another Massive fucking LIE .

Plenty of 15 amp rated ones now and in the past.

If you are so sure, please provide a link to an Australian 15A breaker for
use in a switchboard to prove me wrong. Clipsal, HPM etc have 10, 16, 20,
25, 32 an so on. No 15A.

** It is the contentious issue here and now - FUCKHEAD .

Only contentious in your mind.

If you completed more than two years of your degree you would have learned
about fuses and circuit protection in 4th year with Dr Stokes at Sydney
Uni. Then you *might* know what you are talking about.

Night Phil

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"
Phil Allison.

Phil - Here is YOUR statement -

" Someone is playing funny buggers with the rules here - over fusing a
domestic circuit is inherently dangerous and one of the main causes of
domestic fires."

Your context is domestic fires, not Electrical fires.

** Only an utterly autistic **** would say that.

You are very clearly one of them.

I hope you burn you psychopath !!




................ Phil

 

[David]

"David"
Phil Allison.




** Only an utterly autistic **** would say that.

You are very clearly one of them.

I hope you burn you psychopath !!

Thanks Phil. I accept your acknowledgement that you are wrong.

Cheers
David

 

[Chas]

If you are so sure, please provide a link to an Australian 15A breaker for
use in a switchboard to prove me wrong. Clipsal, HPM etc have 10, 16, 20,
25, 32 an so on. No 15A.

Night Phil

David

Actually, prior to AS3000-1986 IIRC, 15A circuit breakers were the norm for
domestic power circuits. I have several of them (Email-Westinghouse
Quick-lag) in a sub-board in my house, built in the late '70's. The breaker
cat. no. is Q115C. These were superseded by Q116C (16A) after the changes to
AS3000.

There were no 16A breakers in the 1974 Email catalogue.

 

[Dennis Nolan]

You really should have finished that Uni course, then you would know that




** Well - that is cause for a damn good belly laugh !!!!!

If you perhaps studied a tiny bit of basic physics you might find out that
copper has a positive temperature coefficient of resistance. Dissipation is
proportional to I squared times R so the actual dissipation figure is much
higher than 9 times - since R will have increased by 50 % or more.

Lets see
Temperature coefficient of copper is 0.0068
Seems to me that the resistance would increase by 3*3*0.0068 = 9.0612

Hardly 50%

Have a nice day
Dennis

 

[Phil Allison]

"Dennis Nolan" - What an utter Fool !! !

Lets see
Temperature coefficient of copper is 0.0068

** Where did he get that figure from - straight out Dennis the Menace's
fat Arse ???


The actual tempco for copper is 0.0039 per degree C - look it up
anywhere.

Seems to me that the resistance would increase by 3*3*0.0068 = 9.0612

** Even dumber than the previous dumb error.

A 10 amp rated, two core, sheathed cable running at 32 amps will get very
bloody hot - a rise of 125 C above ambient is not unlikely.

125 x .0039 = 0.49 or 49 % increase in resistance.

Hardly 50%

** Probably even more.

Have a nice day

** Go choke, you demented geriatric fool.




.............. Phil

 

[Dennis Nolan]

** Not good enough arsehole - try again

"David" = over sniping maniac plus cretinous LIAR !!





** You have not shown that it was not.

Notice use of past tense - arsehole.






** You know very little indeed then - because I reserve insults for folk
who post shite, especially dangerous shite like:

" ... but people need some common sense with electricity. "

Reads just like "... let them eat cake ".

Shame there is not a guillotine waiting for a pigs like you - David.



You really should have finished that Uni course, then you would know that




** Well - that is cause for a damn good belly laugh !!!!!

If you perhaps studied a tiny bit of basic physics you might find out that
copper has a positive temperature coefficient of resistance. Dissipation is
proportional to I squared times R so the actual dissipation figure is much
higher than 9 times - since R will have increased by 50 % or more.

Lets see
Temperature coefficient of copper is 0.0068
As the temperature increase is directly proportional to the power
dissipation, the increase in resistance created by increasing the
current by 3 times is: the increase in current squared multiplied by the
temperature coefficient.
ie 3*3*0.0068 = 0.0612
or an increase in resistance of 0.000612%


Therefore temperature increase is 9+0.0612 = 9.0612 times.


Have a nice day
Dennis

 

[David]

"Phil Allison" - What an utter Fool !! !

The actual tempco for copper is 0.0039 per degree C - look it up
anywhere.





** Even dumber than the previous dumb error.

A 10 amp rated, two core, sheathed cable running at 32 amps will get very
bloody hot - a rise of 125 C above ambient is not unlikely.

125 x .0039 = 0.49 or 49 % increase in resistance.

Two errors there today Phil.
1) Extension cords are not allowed to be two core, they must be three core
to be legal.

2) The tempco is not linear, but exponential. If you had finished Uni, you
would know that it is really

(1+ 0.0039)^125 not 125 * 0.0039.

The actual increase in resistance is approx 1.63 times, or 63% increase,
not 49% increase.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David" = fuckwit of monumental proportions !!!!!

Phil Allison wrote:

The actual tempco for copper is 0.0039 per degree C - look it up
anywhere.




** Even dumber than the previous dumb error.

A 10 amp rated, two core, sheathed cable running at 32 amps will get very
bloody hot - a rise of 125 C above ambient is not unlikely.

125 x .0039 = 0.49 or 49 % increase in resistance.


Two errors there today Phil.

1) Extension cords are not allowed to be two core, they must be three core
to be legal.

** There are only TWO *current carrying* conductors - you IMBECILE
!!!!

2) The tempco is not linear, but exponential.

** ABSOLUTE FUCKING BULLSHIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you had finished Uni,

** If YOU had ever gone to such place - you FUCKING LIAR !!!

you would know that it is really

(1+ 0.0039)^125 not 125 * 0.0039.

The actual increase in resistance is approx 1.63 times, or 63% increase,
not 49% increase.

** Tempco is LINEAR you fucking, lying utter criminal MORON .

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/restmp.html


Now, admit you are no engineer at ALL !!

You are a fucking electrician !!




................ Phil