[Les Cargill]

Is it even .01% of the total work age population?

Sorry, I don't know. If I have a point, it is
that you have to go where the work is.

Google is no help.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Chances are very good they can't get out of their own way
in the hiring process - although they don't hardly make
machinists any more.


most of the people I went to high school with did not go to college
until much later. Most did the VoTech thing.

Maybe that was then, this is now, but most claim it was a lot harder to
do later and they regret the decision to not go to college
straight out of school.

To make a good wage as a machinist or an electrician, or to make
it past your knees going out, you really need to be pointed at starting
your own company. you won't get that in VoTech,

Depends what you mean by "good". Machinists do kinda national average
range, and way, way better than median (they are in the upper 33%). As
usual, the good ones can do much better- maybe 2-3:1.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

I had wood shop, sheet metal shop and drafting in Junior High School
(middle school to you youngsters). Sheet metal was my favorite craft.
I also took drafting one summer between junior high and high school.
Also won first place in ALL drafting categories in the WV Student
Craftsmen's Fair that summer (1955).

I think drafting is a good background for anyone going into
engineering. Today, of course, no one "drafts" with pen and mylar...
everything is CAD.

...Jim Thompson

Did they then? I would have guessed Staedtler quills and Bishop
Graphics paypyrus..

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Except for the contest submittals, I didn't use pen, just mechanical
drafting pencils. As for the paper, it was a very fine grade that was
almost transparent... don't remember what it was called.

Vellum?

 

[[email protected]]

I think there are a number of factors that have changed the demand for
unskilled labor. One obvious one is the computer. For a good while
computers did not increase the efficiency of the office worker. But
that has changed. Where I used to work, now almost every one has a
computer. So take a simple task like writing a weekly activity
report. The old way was everyone wrote one in pencil and sent it via
company pony mail to the group secretary. After she collected all of
the reports , she gave them to the supervisor who marked them up and
gave them back to the secretary to type. Then they were xeroxed and
sent out again by company pony mail.

A waste of resources.

Now everyone types their report and sends it to the supervisor via
email. The supervisor changes them if they need some revision. And
sends the group activity report out by email.

A waste of higher skilled resources.

So now there is no group secretary, and less for the company mail
person to do, So less demand for average I.Q. secretary and company
mail man.

No, the secretary has been replaced with an "Administrative Assistant" who is
highly skilled in PowerPoint, and the mail man with three IT professionals.
;-)

Another factor is power machinery.
When I was a teenager I had a summer job with the gas company. At
that time they had about 30 unskilled laborers that dug ditches.
Every man had a long handle shovel and a sharpshooter spade ( short D
handle narrow blade ) And there was a pick for every two men. Now I
suspect there are two men with a pickup truck and a mini excavator on
a trailer. Maybe three or four ditch diggers for those places where a
back hoe or a mini excavator can not be used. The demand for ditch
diggers is almost gone.

Every state road worker is still issued a shovel to help hold him upright.
Sure they invented the self-standing shovel but the SEIU won't have any part
of it.

 

[[email protected]]

The studies I've seen show the opposite--preventative care saves
lives, but it costs more.

That's part of why our costs are higher (but cancer outcomes better):
we screen breast, colon, and bladder more than cheaper countries.

There's a scandanavian study that shows smokers are cheaper (less
social cost) than non-smokers. Why? They die.

The point is that everyone dies. That cost is more or less constant. Better
care means you live longer and have more chances to use healthcare. That's
obviously not to say that PM isn't good, but its justification is not cost.

 

[[email protected]]

My point exactly. The jobs for average I.Q. people are gone and they
are replaced by fewer high skilled people.

Or in the above case, *more* highly skilled people.

There is only one
administrative assistant for three or four groups. And she takes all
the group activity reports and edits them into the department report.

Activity reports are a total waste of time. Doesn't your manager know what
you're doing?

 

[Les Cargill]

Good try, but I did not use the term " joe six pack "

Dan

These days, doesn't that refer to somebody with good abdominal muscles?

 

[Jamie]

Michael, You're being overly generous, AGAIN ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Dine with wolves, starve with them. Dementia is tough.

Jamie

 

[josephkk]

I think there are a number of factors that have changed the demand for
unskilled labor. One obvious one is the computer. For a good while
computers did not increase the efficiency of the office worker. But
that has changed. Where I used to work, now almost every one has a
computer. So take a simple task like writing a weekly activity
report. The old way was everyone wrote one in pencil and sent it via
company pony mail to the group secretary. After she collected all of
the reports , she gave them to the supervisor who marked them up and
gave them back to the secretary to type. Then they were xeroxed and
sent out again by company pony mail.

Now everyone types their report and sends it to the supervisor via
email. The supervisor changes them if they need some revision. And
sends the group activity report out by email.

So now there is no group secretary, and less for the company mail
person to do, So less demand for average I.Q. secretary and company
mail man.

Another factor is power machinery.
When I was a teenager I had a summer job with the gas company. At
that time they had about 30 unskilled laborers that dug ditches.
Every man had a long handle shovel and a sharpshooter spade ( short D
handle narrow blade ) And there was a pick for every two men. Now I
suspect there are two men with a pickup truck and a mini excavator on
a trailer. Maybe three or four ditch diggers for those places where a
back hoe or a mini excavator can not be used. The demand for ditch
diggers is almost gone.

Dan

Naw, there is one guy driving a trenching machine, followed another
placing sand, conduit, more sand and backfilling. Drive a truck (tire on
the trench line) over the trench line to compact. For longer trench lines
in pavement there is a big machine that can do thousands of feet per shift
with a cadre of dump trucks, pipe installers, concrete trucks, and a few
others. Even the likes of me has driven a trenching machine. My job;
QC/QA, measuring the amount done, recording equipment and personnel used,
and other reporting functions. They can also directionally bore the
conduit in.

?-)

 

[josephkk]

My high school would probably be labeled as racist now-a-days... it
was really three schools: college prep, trades (even had FAA A&P
training), and business (retail, secretarial, etc.).

Of course it's all gone now... replaced by a "modern" high school that
turns out West Virginia village idiots who go straight on welfare...
and vote Democrat.

(*) I took drafting as an elective from the trades section. I wanted
to take "electronics", but was disallowed, because it was 2 hours per
day and I'd have no "study hall" (like I needed it, I was
Valedictorian). So I took a one hour course, French, instead... met
my wife-to-be in that class, so I guess it was a lucky happenstance


...Jim Thompson

As part of high school i took mixed shop which included drafting, wood
shop and metal shop. So i used parallel motion protractors, power
planers, jointers, power sanders wood and metal lathes, pan breaks and did
one sand casting. I also did 4 years of math, four years of science, four
years of English, four years of history / social studies, three years of
German, and more.

?-)

 

[Mike]

Millions of jobs disappeared when manufacturing moved to China and
other countries, such as India. The term "outsourcing" became part of
the language.


Those points are debatable. They have little or nothing to do with job
creation.

Automation is bringing some manufacturing back to North America. But
very few jobs, and mainly for technical fields.

People are still out of work. Many of them will remain so. Tax policy
has little effect on employment when companies have learned how to
eliminate jobs through automation.

There have been many excellent posts on this subject. The threads have
disappeared from the newsgroup, so I will reply here.

One of the things we forget when we have become old and successful is how
we got here.

If we look back, we can see definite stages in our life when somone
reached out and helped. They gave their time and knowledge and
encouragement to help us learn. Without their help, we most certainly
would have withered like a plant without water.

Each of us has a story. It might be good to tell how we were recognized
by someone and how that person gave of himself to teach us what we needed
to know at the time.

My own story is very simple. I learned how to make a crystal rectifier
from an article in Popular Science by dropping galena in molten lead. My
friend was a rock collector and had a tiny galena crystal. My father had
a construction business, and lead and a blowtorch were readily at hand. I
dropped the galena in the molten lead, and when it cooled, I had the
basics of a crystal set.

Off to make an antenna. About 100 feet of old WWII telegraph wire strung
up on short telephone poles. A lot of digging holes, but it was summer
vacation and I was having fun.

I needed a cardboard form for the inductor. The souce described in the
article was an oatmeal box. My mom was surprised at my sudden interest in
eating oatmeal for breakfast. When the box was finished, I asked her if I
could have it. She said yes, of course.

To my amazement, the set worked. To hear these voices coming from such a
simple collection of parts touched something inside me and started a
lifelong quest to find out how it worked.

In fact, it worked a lot better than it should have. I was curious why,
so I got on my bike to see if I could find the source.

Not five miles away, I found the reason. I was at the transmitter site
for radio station CFRB in Toronto, Canada, a 50KW station transmitting on
1010KHz.

The site engineers saw me outside the gate looking at the antenna, and
they opened the gate and invited me in. That started a wondrous journey.

Each of the engineers was responsible for part of the operation of the
station. They took turns showing me how each part of the station worked,
from the master crystal oscillator, to the 50KW water-cooled final, the
modulator, the power supplies, the antenna tuner, and all the auxilary
sections that made the whole thing work.

One of the engineers encouraged me to get my ham license. I got it -
VE3CKs, and built a small 4W transmitter using a 6AG7 running CW on the
bottom end of 40 meters. And I studied the Amateur Radio Handbook and the
Radiotron Designer's Handbood from cover to cover. All these things led
to an amazing career in electronics.

I would suggest that something similar happened to each one of us. At
some point, someone got involved and did something that changed our
lives. They helped us grow.

We need to do the same. I propose we should reach out and find some way
to help others get a foothold in a most amazing field. Talk to your local
high school professors and see if there is any way you can help. Teach
kids how to solder. Teach them how to program. teach them how to build
and debug simple circuits.

If you can, teach them how to use LTspice. Of all the gifts that are
freely given, LTspice has got to be the most significant. Knowledge on
how to run it and interpret the results will most certainly be the most
important asset in a young engineer's toolbox.

Of course, it won't be easy. There will be roadblocks at each step. These
don't matter. What matters is working your way through them, and finding
the minds that will grasp what you have to offer.

Regards,

Mike

 

[Martin Brown]

The studies I've seen show the opposite--preventative care saves
lives, but it costs more.

As practised in America this is likely true since the doctor will do
every unnecessary and expensive treatment that he can think of related
to the condition to avoid malpractice suits and make a profit.

Other countries that are less litigious use the most appropriate and
cost effective treatment for the condition.

That's part of why our costs are higher (but cancer outcomes better):
we screen breast, colon, and bladder more than cheaper countries.

Only for the small percentage of people with adequate medical cover.
Japan is way better where healthcare and longevity is concerned because
excellent treatment is available to everyone no matter how poor.

There's a scandanavian study that shows smokers are cheaper (less
social cost) than non-smokers. Why? They die.

As do people with type II diabetes and hypertension if left untreated.

 

[[email protected]]

Yes, but.........the activity reports are edited and then go to
several layers of management above the first level manager.

A colossal waste of everyone's time. I wonder how many actually read them.

 

[Charlie E.]

My high school would probably be labeled as racist now-a-days... it
was really three schools: college prep, trades (even had FAA A&P
training), and business (retail, secretarial, etc.).

Of course it's all gone now... replaced by a "modern" high school that
turns out West Virginia village idiots who go straight on welfare...
and vote Democrat.

(*) I took drafting as an elective from the trades section. I wanted
to take "electronics", but was disallowed, because it was 2 hours per
day and I'd have no "study hall" (like I needed it, I was
Valedictorian). So I took a one hour course, French, instead... met
my wife-to-be in that class, so I guess it was a lucky happenstance


...Jim Thompson

In my high school, they didn't require a study hall, but they would
only 'allow' you to take 'X and 1/2' units per year. For freshman
year, you had PE (1/2 credit). For sophmore year, we had ROTC (again,
1/2 credit) for Senior year, I sat in on the speech class for the
first half of the year, and then officially took it the second half.

Oh, I just skipped junior year, took english (the only 4 credit
requirement) in summer school between my soph and senior years.

Charlie

 

[Charlie E.]

I had wood shop, sheet metal shop and drafting in Junior High School
(middle school to you youngsters). Sheet metal was my favorite craft.
I also took drafting one summer between junior high and high school.
Also won first place in ALL drafting categories in the WV Student
Craftsmen's Fair that summer (1955).

I think drafting is a good background for anyone going into
engineering. Today, of course, no one "drafts" with pen and mylar...
everything is CAD.

...Jim Thompson

But, it still helps to know how to put together a drawing from a blank
page up! I took drafting, but didn't get to take any shop. Not
enough time after skipping a year... :-(

Class I most missed not being able to take - typing!

Charlie

 

[Jeroen]

[...]

We've got a lot of fat people, leading to cancer, heart disease,
hypertension, stroke, kidney failure, diabetes, teen births, and more,
all diseases / conditions potentiated by lifestyle. That's most of our
excess mortality, that and non-medical causes such as car crashes.

Excess fat causes more teen births? How does that come about?
The mind boggles.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Charlie E.]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 10:35:44 -0700, Jim Thompson
[snip]

I think drafting is a good background for anyone going into
engineering. Today, of course, no one "drafts" with pen and mylar...
everything is CAD.

...Jim Thompson

But, it still helps to know how to put together a drawing from a blank
page up! I took drafting, but didn't get to take any shop. Not
enough time after skipping a year... :-(

Class I most missed not being able to take - typing!

Charlie

You and me both. I'm now up to 4 fingers, two on each hand ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Oh, way back when I got my first PC, one of the first programs I
'obtained' (while singing sea faring songs... ;-) ) was a typing tutor
program. A little work on that for a few months, and I can almost
touch type, although I am a dyslexic typist... ;-)

Charlie

 

[Jamie]

Obama was trained as lawyer. The only way that the Republicans can
find anything to complain about what he says is to wilfully
misunderstand it. The "If you've got a business - you didn't build
that" line that amdx used to start this thread is exactly this kind of
deliberate mis-quotation - the "that" in the sentence actually
referred to the roads and bridges that the business exploits, not the
business itself, as has been pointed out in this thread.

In fact I'm not claiming that your response is being taken out of
context, I'm complaining that it's malicious fantasy with no
connection to reality. Or in terms that you can understand, you are
lying about stuff that you know nothing about, and probably couldn't
understand if you did know anything about it.

But there is one thing you are forgetting or never understood, most
likely and that is, the money used to build all of those roads and
bridges were paid from taxes by those that "WORKED", so that the GOV
could collect money to give away to freeloaders and maybe keep the
infrastructure up to date, if there is any left over.

But you wouldn't understand that because you don't know the meaning
of "WORK" and paying your share so that maybe you could get to use the
roads that you helped build. As I see it, you are no better than those
in office, scamming their way in life.

Regardless of what OBama said/says, he has run out of ideas as to how
this country actually got to where it did. Did you notice I said did?
Most likely because he and those like him have been giving it away just
to insure those, the cronies, that work under him and all the crooked
politicians have a place they can hide when they have worn out their
welcome.

Jamie